PoO judging

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diesel destroyer
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PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:08 am

I'm new to 'showing your car'

Is there a link somewhere to exactly what judges are looking for in (for example) PoO

I get the concourse bit.. Nearest original.. In best condition.. Wins

But PoO and the modified thing is a mystery. To me anyway

What is defined as 'modified'?

For example.. My own car has some mods.. All of the following impossible to see by eye with car on display:

Custom made anti roll bars
Custom made drop links
Seam welded body and subframes
De-seamed body
1.9 scholar block
Ported and polished head with 633 cams
Twin fuel pumps
Titan ITBs
Vibratechnics engine mounts
Large open areas strut braced with custom struts
Double shear wishbones
Rose jointed suspension on rear
Rear arches stretched 10mm wider each side
Keyless entry and start
Whole body shell sound proofed

Ok.. So that's a few of what you can't see..

Can see:

Electric handbrake
333x32 front discs with Brembo 4 pots
312x25 rear discs with Hi Spec 2 pots
5 stud wheels (17 front 18 rear)
One off front and rear bumpers (created by me)
De locked and de handled entire car
One off bootid
Bonnet smoothed
Scuttle panel smoothed
Custom made smoothed rear quads (made from scratch)
One off exhaust back box with variable volume)
RX8 seats cut and re-trimmed
One off interior
One of a kind lambo doors (mine open tighter to the car than anyone else's)
Smoothed in side scoops

So I enter into a show, what's to stop judges looking at it for 30 seconds and going 'white TF (it's an F with TF headlights) with a body kit..

How do judges know what's 'modified' and what's standard.. If I parked next to Andy Watsons F would the judges see silver F with lambo doors and body kit and think they were the same?

From what I've seen no one has ever asked for a list of mods done..

I've spent less than Andy.. But I have more 'one off custom made stuff than him' it's just most of it is invisible to naked eye when looking from outside

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talkingcars
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Re: PoO judging

Post by talkingcars » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:14 am

There is nothing to say you can't leave a list of modifications with the car.
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diesel destroyer
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Re: PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:37 am

James.. Andy did that this year.. Four pages.. No one looked..

I can't help thinking a judge would look at one of my back wheels and notice a scratch and mark me down.. And completely miss that not only is the wheel 5 stud.. Custom made flanges, re-engineering of hub to make its mounting stronger, the one off rear brakes.. But also not get how much work it took to squeeze a 235x40x18 in the back.. Nope.. There's a small scratch (my car is going to be driven after all) on the wheel.. Let's mark it down..

Modding for modding sake?

Well I set out to build a 200+ bhp grand tourer.. That should return 50mpg on a motorway.. So some mods are invisible to passers by... But done for a reason.. For example

Brake pedal cut and a 3/4" section removed.. So now my brake pedal and accelerator sit at the same height..

5th gear changed to return better mpg on Euro runs

EPAS switchable on/off from steering wheel for B roads/track days

Rear quarter panels foam filled (dynamat added first) to reduce noise ingress into cabin.. Twined with the variable volume exhaust so that the car will be whisper quiet on a long run to Spain.. Then open the electric valve for some noise

Air scarf and heated seats added to make winter topless cruising more comfortable

The custom aluminium rad was made by a concept racing.. To my design.. To allow for super cooling even in the Spanish mountain sun.. Same with the 395mm Mocal oil cooler.. Every hose on the car is brand new and silicone from Roose.. Even the three to the heater matrix.. All new to minimise chance of failure

The de-lock de-handle thing increases security.. No locks to force, no cables to fish..

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talkingcars
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Re: PoO judging

Post by talkingcars » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:20 pm

Maybe 4 pages were too much, I'd go for a single sheet.
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diesel destroyer
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Re: PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:28 pm

Lol single sheet.. Not gonna fit it all on one sheet.. That's kinda my point James.. No point making a list unless you list EVERYTHING.. And even less point making a list unless the judges read it.. Or even speak to the owner about the mods done..

The ZT coupe that the lifestyles guys are making is another great example.. Once it's finished how many will look at the finished car and have no idea how much fabrication went into it.. Craftsmanship.. Talent and skill..

Guess as my own car is being built to drive (so bound to pick up stone chips, marks on wheels etc) and not some trailer queen.. There is little point entering it.. Guess if anyone really wants to see my car they can find it in the camp site..

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Re: PoO judging

Post by nigelandjo » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:37 pm

Guidelines for the PoO at MG90 can be found here:

http://www.mgcc.co.uk/mg90/wp-content/u ... elines.pdf
Nigel May
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Keith Williams
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Re: PoO judging

Post by Keith Williams » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:59 pm

Looking back at the MGFest09 POO rules and I expect most POO will be using similar guidelines .......

Cars will be judged in five areas (Bodywork, Boot including engine compartment in F/TF, Under bonnet including engine in other categories, interior, wheels & wheel arches).
Usage, presentation and pride in the vehicle will also be taken into consideration by the judges.


I assume both standard and modified cars will be judged in the same manner as above as it is not the modifications or number of modifications that create the winner in that category but the presentation of the car that is the important thing.
1998 MGF VVC, 2001 Trophy 160 & 2013 MG6 GT TSE

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Rob Bell
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Re: PoO judging

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:36 pm

I probably don't quite "get" PoO either (which will not come as a surprise to anyone! :lol:), but I think I am right in thinking that this is a competition that concentrates on presentation and the aesthetic over everything else. Which is great, and the people who enter these competitions put in a herculean amount of effort that leaves me in awe. So consider the modifications on their aesthetic merits.

Is this right? Should depth of engineering excellence also be considered for these competitions? The beauty for many is often in the detail...

Perhaps it would be interesting to turn your question on its head Allan: how would you design a competition for modified cars that didn't immediately favour the depth of pocket but rather the dedication, ingenuity and imagination of the owner?

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Keith Williams
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Re: PoO judging

Post by Keith Williams » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:36 pm

The modified section of POO is just like having a section for MGFs and a separate one for MGTFs. It basically has the same idea of showing off a clean well presented car. It does not take into account the mods in my mind but just ensures that people who like to mod their cars get a chance to enter and are not held back by judges who prefer the more standard models.
1998 MGF VVC, 2001 Trophy 160 & 2013 MG6 GT TSE

diesel destroyer
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Re: PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:29 pm

The modding thing was discussed a while back on another forum.. And in fact is had a rather interesting conversation with a gent at a show who hated people meddling with these cars.. And then I noticed mods on his car.. Which he was quick to point out weren't modifications.. Just upgrades for safety and comfort ?!?

Rob one of the main reasons I go to the shows is to pinch others ideas and use them on my build.. Air scarf for example.. Cheap mod.. But one that's very effective..

None of these competitions should be about depth of wallet.. But still failing to see how an unused garaged car that is only bought out and shown (trailer queen) that has say roll hoops added and different floor mats.. Can beat a car with custom suspension, custom wheels, custom brakes, custom interior (all hypothetical) in the modified section of POO just because its cleaner.. As the second car is used.. Funny I know.. A car being driven n all..

As one car can win year after year I can't help thinking its a waste of time entering..

So next Live.. Providing my car actually makes it there lol.. Anyone wanting (unlikely) to see it will find it next to my tent.. As it won't be super clean and scratch free.. As I'd have been previously enjoying the very thing it was built for... Driving 8-)

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andywatson
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Re: PoO judging

Post by andywatson » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:48 pm

I think unfortunately due to the marking structure money comes into it regardless of whether a car is modified on not. You could have a completely immaculate car but you may have a dent on the door which you can't afford to get repaired, with 20 points available for bodywork you are immediately disadvantaged. What we need is something like the judging they have at Waxstock where they look beyond, dents, scratches and even rust and are able to judge on the work the owner has put in to presenting what he has to the best possible standard. I was fortunate enough to do some judging at MG90 this year and it is a difficult job, but I hope I judged the cars in the way I would like to be judged, taking into account the age, whether the cars a daily driver or show car, etc. I would suggest a more complex marking structure say where you may get points deducted for dents and scratches, but you have points added for every 1000 miles per year the car is driven. this would even it out between daily drivers and show cars.

diesel destroyer
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Re: PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:26 pm

At least the rules do say the car has to be driven to the show.. Seen a fair few bubble wrapped minis in shows before.. Wheeled out of the transport trailer.. Unwrapped.. Polished..and then re-wrapped and pushed back into the trailer.. Their face is a picture when you suggest driving it.. :lol:

Any chance next year we could have at least one judge who knows F/TF s inside out.. And I mean really knows them.. Can spot something out of the ordinary from the other side of the car park.. :thumbsu:

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Rob Bell
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Re: PoO judging

Post by Rob Bell » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:55 pm

Andy, you'd make an excellent judge - and so would you Allan. :)

The question then is "how" would you create a fair marking scheme for modified cars - or perhaps make things a little easier, modified MGFs/TFs in particular?

diesel destroyer
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Re: PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:23 pm

For me personally.. I like originality..

A mod done by an owner which is a one off.. rather than off the shelf..

Anyone can bolt on a spoiler or spot lights say.. But grafting on something from another car.. different seats for example.. or body kit from another car.. but making it look factory..

Adding tons of Halfords stick on tat.. does nothing for me..

I must admit I would turn a blind eye to shopping carpark ding.. or stone chip.. if the rest of their was evidence the rest of the car was looked after and cared for.. after all you could pick up a stone chip coming from the camp site to the PoP..

You cant ever please everyone all the time.. but you can have win once and your out.. No fun if same car wins every year..

Next year.. Get Helen to be one of the judges? As she won this year?

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Rob Bell
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Re: PoO judging

Post by Rob Bell » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:06 pm

I like that suggestion of originality... :thumbsu:

diesel destroyer
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Re: PoO judging

Post by diesel destroyer » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:14 pm

Jan Carter has a drinks holder made from the passenger air bag blank.. crude.. but effective.. I love it.. and she made it herself.. on a budget of 20p..

It deffo shouldn't be about deepest pockets.. It should be (in my mind) about new ways to re-invent these cars and keep interest in them alive :thumbsu:

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