Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

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MK6
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Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:17 pm

I'm new to MG Fs and TFs. But I always liked the cars. Cars like the MX5 have always got praise and I always felt the MG roadsters were underrated. But I always preferred the MGs, especially style wise .

I have always thought about buying one but never got to. Now I'm finally in a position where I could justify adding a sport car to the fleet, adding a third car to the family. So I was thinking of a project sports car of some sort, when I remembered the MG F. I am giving preference to the MG F over the MG TF because of the Hydragas suspension, which I heard is easier to deal with for a heavier engine swap.

I tried researching online and couldn't really find much in terms of engine swaps. That surprised me as the other affordable sports cars such as MX5, MR2, Fiero, Elise and others all have widely reported and known engine swaps. From other 4 cylinders to even V8s. The MG F is not any smaller than these cars. So I wonder why you don't hear about swaps?

Have there been successful swaps done? I searched the forums here and found some mentions and a failed attempt of swapping in a KV6, which resulted in the car being sold before the swap was done. But no successful stories to be found.

I would specially be interested in putting something bigger in there. Not a V8 but a V6 for sure. Don't want to swap for another 4 cylinders such as a Honda unit, which seems to be the only swap that has been successful. Although even that I haven't read anything concrete about.

So what could you experienced MG F and TF owners tell me about a V6 swap? Am I crazy? Should I give up before I even start and just buy a V6 car already? Or it it feasible? It would be nice if it was a Rover engine to keep it in the family. But to be honest I wouldn't mind if it would be another manufacture's.

Thanks for your input.
Last edited by MK6 on Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by Reckless Rat » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:03 pm

Obviously it will ultimately depend on the depth of your pockets. There are some track based MGF/TF cars with Honda VTEC or Toyota conversions and it was a shame that the KV6 car never got finished, but unless you've got a bottomless pit of money you might as well just buy a fast audi TT. I think it highly unlikely you'd ever get much more than 200bhp out of any MG conversion and still have it driveable for road use.

There was someone trying to put a Subaru WRX engine & transmission into an F/TF but that seemed to hit the buffers too.

And, just for info... while the Trophy and TF160 are far more powerful that an MPi or a 135, the lower powered cars are far more tractable for daily use. The Trophy only goes banzai if you rev the nuts off it, and daily driving doesn't need that (IMHO)

If you're not sure, try a 1.6 115bhp - it's a lovely little revver.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by talkingcars » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:18 pm

Hi and welcome to the forum

KV6 and K4 turbo (from the 1.8T ZT)have both been done successfully several times.

Both are available through commercial garages.

James
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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:20 pm

Thanks for the reply.

So the reason you don't hear about swaps is cost?

What is it that makes swaps so costly with the MG F and TF? It seems swaps can be done quite affordably in the other platforms I mentioned.

An Audi TT is a front wheel drive car. So there is no comparison to me.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by talkingcars » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:44 pm

Engine bay space is limited, to fit either the KV6 or the 1.8T you need to modify the forward bulk head and I the KV6 requires a bit of modification to the subframe.
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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:54 pm

OK. But what about just using a non Rover V6? The KV6 being older, I'm sure we have much more modern and most likely compact and lighter V6 engines?

Considering the similar wheelbase and how forward the cabin is with the MG, I'm surprised Mr2s, Fieros etc would have more space for engines.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by talkingcars » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:53 pm

The boot on the F is big enough for 2 sets of golf clubs. The engine bay was designed around the K4 NASP.

The KV6 is quite a compact engine, I guess the VW VR6 is even narrower but it is an even older design.
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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:54 pm

So couldn't you use some of the boot space to fit the engine then? It doesn't matter if the boot gets smaller to me.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by talkingcars » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:14 pm

And there lies the extra costs involved......

When you start chopping the boot about you reduce body strength which you then have to replace.

And the current engine location lines up with the driveshafts and hubs, move the engine "centre line" and you have to deal with this.
You could move the fuel tank to give you a bit more space to the front.
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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:28 pm

I see what you mean. But I don't understand why it has to be that way. It has basically the exact same wheelbase as a Pontiac Fiero, a car which receives even V8 swaps. Actually the MG wheelbase is longer by 2mm. Yet it poses a problem? I'm wondering what MG did.

The MG F also has the cabin more forward than the Fiero, which should make it even more spacious behind the seats for an engine. Even if the trunk pushes forward reducing the space because it's large, you shouldn't have the center line problem, since the Fiero came with a V6 and has the same wheelbase and the cabin more backwards. V8s seem to fit in a Fiero without frame extensions too. The MR2 is also just slightly longer wheelbase and many swaps have been done. I'm just trying to understand why the MG makes it more complicated than these others.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:35 pm

See these cutaways:

Image

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by Steve White » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:55 pm

Think you may be overlooking the fact the fuel tank on the F is between the engine and cabin, the cutaway doesn't really show it.
So unless to relocate or reduce the size of the tank (not easy with a plastic tank) that that space isn't really useable.
Relocating the tank would be another additional expense, and locating it under the bonnet or in the boot area would leave it prone the damage in an accident, as both area are part of the cars crash structure.

Ultimately, I think high cost and low car values is the reason few engine swaps have been don on the MGF/TF.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:34 pm

Thanks for coming into the discussion Steve. Like talkingcars you also bring in good points.

So if relocating the tank, space is no longer a problem? Then a V6 could fit without the center line problems talkingcars speak of or without the need to cut into the structure of the car?

Maybe fitting a racing fuel tank made of soft material? You know, essentially a bag. Or even two smaller tanks instead of a larger one? Many race cars and Ferraris have two tanks on the rear quarter wings for example. Thinking of it, most rear mid engine cars have the tank or tanks there. In between the door and rear wheel or even under the sills under the door. The Fiero has the tank along the middle of the car, where the driveshaft for a front engine RWD car would be. This is the reason for the high tunnel in the middle of the car. So maybe there is a way in the MG to do something similar with a flexible racing tank?

But most cars have the tank under the trunk area anyway. So I wouldn't think putting it there would leave it any more prone to damage in an accident as with most cars?

I'm aware of the added expense and am fine with it. As long as we are not talking about huge sums of money, in which case defeats the point.

As for high cost of the swap and low car values being the reason few engine swaps have been don on the MGF/TF, a Fiero is dirty cheap in the U.S. Few cars receive more engine swaps than a Fiero. A MR2 is also very affordable and engine swaps are done all the time. I think a low cost for the platform is actually a big incentive. So I could only think the reason for no swaps with the MGF/TF had to be technical. This is what I'm still trying to understand.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by talkingcars » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:51 pm

The bulk head between the fuel tank and the engine is solid and gives some of the structural strength of the shell.
If you remove the tank I would turn the bulk head in front of the tank into a solid one to compensate for removing the other one.
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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:09 am

Do you mean this:

Image

Just making sure I understood. You mean closing the open square space behind the seats?

And then if relocating the tank, a V6 engine could fit without further modifications besides making the bulk head behind the seats solid?

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by Geoff.F » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:31 am

One aspect of modifying a car is the intended use of it. You state that you live in "Europe" Depending whether it is in the EU and if so, to the extent of how the car will satisfy the manufacturers Certificate of Compliance.
In the UK, this is largely ignored, others require no change to the specification upto "thou shall only fit the Original Manufacturers Parts,viz.No aftermarket or reverse engineered copy parts unless they have TUV Approval.

Geoff.F.

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:16 am

Yes, TUV Approval etc. But this is a different matter. Before even worrying about that I need to workout the technicalities. But since there are even replicas driving around, I'm sure it can be done. :)

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by talkingcars » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:05 pm

MK6 wrote:Do you mean this:

Just making sure I understood. You mean closing the open square space behind the seats?

And then if relocating the tank, a V6 engine could fit without further modifications besides making the bulk head behind the seats solid?
That is the panel.
I would seam weld a mild steel panel for maximum strength.
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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by MK6 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:53 pm

OK, great. Understood. Thanks. That's an easy job.

I would like to ask again, if relocating the tank, a V6 engine could fit without further modifications besides making the bulk head behind the seats solid?

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Re: Engine Swap for a larger engine? Possible?

Post by Geoff.F » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:28 pm

MK6 wrote:Yes, TUV Approval etc. But this is a different matter. Before even worrying about that I need to workout the technicalities. But since there are even replicas driving around, I'm sure it can be done. :)
I am afraid that I would know what I could do within TUV Approval and the cost before spending time or a $.
Replica cars come at a high cost with minimal variation from the original CofC with costs spread over a number of sales.
A one off cheap MGF may just be uneconomical.
Geoff.F

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