Money Transfer to the UK - Deutsche Bank rip-off!

[Mykel]

Hi MGFolks,

I already have this one posted on the German mgboard, but would like to put it here as well.

Due to various circumstances, it may sometimes be wise for us overseas dwellers to look for MGF or TF parts in the UK. Not only new ones or aftermarket replacements from shops accepting Visa or other credit cards, but sometimes interesting stuff shows up in fleaBay UK from private sellers as well. So the question is how to get the payment done then.

As usual I relied on my trustworthy Deutsche Bank and just wired the £10 due to the seller’s account; IBAN and BIC provided, no problem I thought. Been there, done that before, but only within Euro zone. Didn’t cost me a penny (or a cent, rather).
But now for something completely different: it’s sterling, luv! Slightly different online form asked me to state who’s going to pay the fees (either me, him or split). As I was the one to pay, I ticked the "all fees charged to the sender" box. No amounts whatsoever stated, well, can’t be that much anyway.
What an error!

When I got my account statement, I had to realise that £10 had miraculously been blown up to exactly 50.67 Euros. WTF? British economy shooting up like a rocket, with exchange rates reverting to the sixties? No way - the actual amount is stated to be 11.62 Euros, adding 10 Euros for Deutsche Bank’s own sake, 1.55 SWIFT, 2.50 exchange fee, plus another 25 Euros (in plain English twenty-five!) foreign fees flat. And all this without warning in the first place.

Next day I went to the branch office for some good butt-kicking. Told the guys I would cancel my business relations immediately if I wasn’t refunded. Worked this time but for the future there has to be a different solution.

My ideas:
- don’t buy from private sellers any more (not too wise)
- get a Paypal account (wouldn’t like to do that, don’t trust them too much)
- agree on payment in Euros, this would be free of charge for me

Does anybody of you know what happens on a UK sterling account if I wire an amount in Euros? Are any fees to be paid on the receiver’s part for the conversion?

Thanks a lot and cheers
Mykel

[Neil Rushton]

It is always prohibitive for us to transfer money out of the UK to such things as European events, you would be better with paypal, its very reliable & saves the bank stuffing you.
Evidently theres is little or no charge among continental banks just something us Brits have to suffer?

[Mykel]

Evidently theres is little or no charge among continental banks just something us Brits have to suffer?

Yep Neil, that’s just it. Every bank transfer within the EU must be subject to the same fees as domestic ones, that’s European law (SEPA = single European payment area), mostly meaning no commission at all. But this only applies as long as the business is done in Euros, enabling some banks to make piles of money from currency conversions. BTW no matter which direction as you can see from my case.

Unfortunately some stubborn countries like to stick to their inherited money (something is rotten in the state of Denmark)...

Cheers
Mykel

[Rob Bell]

Flippin eck Mykel - that's a bit rich. Is PayPal the future then?

[Mykel]

Dunno Rob, I’m actually a bit worried about them. One reads loads of posts about Paypal nicking people’s money by putting their accounts on suspension due to "fraudulent payment sources". Once they got you there, you may still receive payments but neither send nor withdraw funds from your own account. And generally noone to talk to who’s really in charge. The American way, I suppose.

As long as I can use my Visa that’s okay, but with private sellers I'd rather agree on a Euro based bank transfer, like 1.25 Euros to a Pound. Would be free for me then; the only thing I am concerned about is whether the UK banks are charging a fortune to convert this to sterling on the receiving end.

In the long term imho it would be best for Britain to adopt the Euro as well, an idea not too popular at the moment, is it? (duck-and-cover )

Cheers
Mykel

[adrianclifford]

Mykel, I've read this with great interest as I regularly transfer money out of the UK to EU for Register events. I usually collect the money for all of the cars in the travelling group and pay one amount, this saves everybody paying the high transfer charges. Last year I was "investigated" by the FSA (Financial Services Authority) because of the regular amounts of money I transfer out of the UK. I now try to pay upon arrival (as I do at the Tour de Lux) this saves a lot of money (as you have found out) for this I need the trust and friendship of the organisers, sometimes I can, sometimes I cannot, it depends on the amount of money really.

The statements are not exactly correct though, as an example, two years ago I transferred all of the money for three cars to travel to the Ardennen Tour in Luxembourg, I paid all transfer fees and sent the amount in Euros. Guy wrote to me and told me that the amount was short, I e mailed him the tranfer sheet to prove I had sent the full and correct amount, he accepeted this and told me to forget the shortfall.

I went to the sender (Nationwide) and explained the situation, they said they would look in to it for me, three weeks later, nothing so I went back and tried again, this time I was lucky, I spoke to the manager who made several phone calls and while I was there he received a fax from international money tranfers, what had happened was this : the money was sent in Sterling and converted in Luxembourg to Euros, not sent in Euros as per the transfer form, so as the rate had changed there was a shortfall, second, they left it for three days ( Friday and the whole weekend) before sending the money, thirdly they took their expected commission but so did the receiving bank in Luxembourg. I said I agreed to pay all transfer charges but why twice, it appears that is is acceptable in banking, however, the fee is flexible and open to whatever the banks feel is reasonable. You cannot find out in advance what these charges may be but transferring the money in Euros saves some fees. I give them their due though, they put it all right, sent the shortfall and repaid the extra fees to me.

For years I have used PayPal with no problems, I now receive and send money this way with no hassle and a very low fee, it works for me I have to say.

For our European hotels I try to pay by credit card in advance, this way there are no fees and, so far, it's all worked well. I guess when you start paying money electronically it's always open to crooks and cheats so be careful.

[talkingcars]

If you buy through eBay the only way to pay IMHO is through Paypal, the money goes from my account in sterling and is converted by them into the other currancy.

For overseas payments I normally use a credit card to pay paypal.

Thinking about it, if there is a paypal option I'll use it regardless.

[Mykel]

If possible, I use Paypal’s test drive to pay with my Visa card, no need to open my own account then. Still I would rather rely on a decent bank transfer as long as the fees are reasonable. For example when I paid Claude for the Tour de Lux, I wired 120 € and that’s exactly what he got and what apperaed on my statement likewise. No additional fees whatsoever.

@Adrian: Why don’t we give it a try then. You PM or mail me your IBAN and BIC and I send you the equivalent of £10 in Euros (11.50 € at the moment). We will then see which amount is written to your account. Would of course mean the first round on Hôtel de la Poste terrace is on you.

Cheers
Mykel

[adrianclifford]

OK Mykel, I'll send you my bank details by pm, let's see what happens. Now, let me see, if I receive something close to €11.50 will two beers be less

[gwp]

Having got caught by this in the past I hold credit/charge cards in euros and USD. I can put money on them in the UK with very low exchange rates. The money is actually held on the card as Euros or USD as appropriate so that when you pay for things it just comes straight off, no charges except for cash withdrawal. I think they do offer something in Sterling as well, if it's something you are doing regulary may be worth investigating. Not sure if it's available to non-Uk residents or whether similar schemes operate? The one I use is FairFx.

[RoadRunner]

I believe PayPal is the way to go on the internet, for ebay-sellers from the UK I always use PayPal because you have some kind of insurance if anything goes wrong. Only trusted sellers like B&G will get my creditcard details.

In the past I did a couple of bank transfers to Germany with split costs, no extra charge at all.

P.S. I always PayPal to the Uk in £'s so i'm sure the right amount is received.

[adrianclifford]

Ton's payments to me always come through quickly and complete, it works for us.

[Mykel]

So to let all of you know what actually came out of this in the end ...

I wired Adrian the equivalent of £10 on the 17 February, that was 11.86 Euros that day. A week later, Adrian had received £9.66p so the bank took just 34p (3.4 %), not too bad we both guessed.

Another example:
I got me a fog light switch from a breaker in the UK for another £10 incl. p/p and made a one-time guest payment via Paypal, they took 12.13 Euros from my Visa card. That's about the same commission for me as the sender plus some more on top on the receiving end I suppose. But it's there when I click my mouse button, not a week later. And no fussy calculations to be made.

Therefore, I have decided to submit myself to the unforeseeable vices of the American banking system and actually opened a Paypal account, but will only use it to send money "overseas". On the continent, it's cheaper (and actually much faster) to use SEPA transfers.

Britons, get the Euro, for heaven's sake


Cheers to all and thanks a lot Adrian,
Mykel

[Reckless Rat]

Mykel,

I also live in the Euro zone and often buy things from the UK because they're generally cheaper. I have found Paypal 100% reliable up to present. Transferring money from your bank is always going to cost more because of the commissions. The only thing you have to watch out for is the postage costs. Be prepared to haggle!

[ElectroSoldier]

Yes the fees are crippling no matter which way round it goes, I will not transfer monies like this again.
I bought a model kit for a friend as an xmas present 4 years ago, and still remember it... it was £22.99... in the end I paid nearly £50 for that bloody thing in the end!!!!

Paypal does have some horror stories its true, but if you follow their rules (obtain proof of postage, get a signature, only send to the Paypal address no matter what address they want it sent to (get them to change paypal address even), favor bank transfer over credit card payments, and remove your linked bank account details between transactions then you should be alright with paypal...

The biggest problem with paypal is credit card snatch backs, the buyer needs no proof at all to do it, all they need do is phone their cc company and they get their money back.

I had a problem recently to the tune of £260... because I followed their rules every step of the way the buyer didnt have a leg to stand on, DHL was my hero in that case, and even if it went pear shaped, Paypal didnt have my bank details to take my money anyway.

The system is stacked against you, so you have to level it out with under-handedness...

Paypal is a good option if you follow some simple rules. and its a lot cheaper than the bank transfter charges

[Mykel]

Actually if you go the SEPA way, which means sending the money to the UK in Euros, this is even cheaper than Paypal, yet it takes ages and I have to calculate the exchange rate. Paypal is about twice the charge, but at warp speed of course. And this is the biggest advantage IMHO.

I will only use Paypal to send money to sellers in the UK, as I don't think I will sell things there. As long as I have no positive balance on my Paypal account, there is nothing they can freeze or snatch back.

[ElectroSoldier]

Mykel.
If you buyer pays you with a credit card it doesnt matter if your paypal account has money in it or not they will take it, sending your paypal account to minus figures.

Its exactly what happened to me, my paypal balance was £0.00 until the snatch back which put it -£259.41