Institute of Advanced Motorists IAM

yo55er · Post by **yo55er** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:14 pm

I write to enquire has any member or members of the Forum had advanced driver training and did they think it worth while. Has what they were shown/taught altered their style and state of mind when they are behind the wheel of their MG. Then, of course, there is also the opposite side to the coin, have any members thought about it and then decided it was not for them. The reason could be varied, such as time and expense; Don't need it, I drive ok, could be another one.
My real passion is motorcycles and because of now being a pensioner, I simply could not afford [plus having dodgy ankles] to have two toys, so my bike had to go. But not before I took an advanced riders course and from this I learnt such a lot, that some of it has followed me over to when I'm in my MGF. I have, until my retirement, been driving for a living for 50 plus years, which includes 20 of them in HGV's, then coaches, buses and finally with what is now DHL, so for me to learn something, not just new, but better, is saying something. I took my tuition from my local RoSPA/RoADAR training school based in Ormskirk, Lancashire, but there are sites all over the country which are run by volunteers and that makes it a bit cheaper, but something I did learn and I'm keen to pass it on and it's that, any advanced training is better than no advanced training.
If you find this blog of interest, please send in your thoughts. I assure you, from my previous involvement on my bike forum you will all find it helpful and enjoyable.
Dave Hughes

Mike H · Post by **Mike H** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:54 pm

I decided some years ago that, because of the mileage I was doing at the time, 'there must be something more to it', and looked for some advanced driver training.

I learnt a lot from my initial IAM training, passed the test, and went on to observe for the local group in Bristol (still do), being Chief Observer for three years just after the turn of the century. In the meantime I also joined the local RoSPA/RoADAR group and got a gold at the first attempt, with follow up golds on each three year follow up.

So, to answer your question - yes I definitely did and still do get something from it. The basic issue in the UK is that most drivers think that their driving is good and don't see the need for any further training after passing the DSA test. The advanced observation techniques I have learnt, coupled with all the other good 'stuff' has certainly improved my driving skills and allows me to make smooth progress. I'd recommend virtually ANY form of advanced driver training to anyone; even if it's only an afternoon on a skidpan.

mgtfnut · Post by **mgtfnut** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:04 pm

Funny this comes up after talking the other night Mike

I had to take the test in 1994 for work, and moved to dangerous chemical tankers.

It taught me defensive driving, along with some police driver training, and that there is a difference in driving "fast", and making quick progress.

It all goes to pot when driving rally stages on fast gravel roads/off-road in my 4x4

Reckless Rat · Post by **Reckless Rat** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:19 pm

First of all, you don't have to be clever to be a biker... unless you want to become an old one.

I was fortunate in having the benefit of Advanced Driver Training - I was an instructor in a Police Driving School for 5 years in a former life so I think I know what I'm talking about. I taught at all levels from learners to Advanced Car/Bike refreshers as well as HGV, PCV, off road bikes, 4x4 the lot.

Most (if not all) AIM examiners are former or serving Police Advanced drivers and they give good advice.

There is a world of difference between driving your car (or bike) fast on a track and being able to drive safely on the UK's roads. What the AIM courses will help you with is observation, planning and anticipation. It's being able to identify danger before it becomes a problem that will keep you out of trouble. Sadly most people's level of awareness, concentration and general car control has not developed (and in many cases has deteriorated) since they passed their driving test.

To quote the police "Roadcraft" manual - any fool can drive fast enough to be dangerous.

WR Blue · Post by **WR Blue** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:47 pm

I did my IAM a few years ago and would certainly recommend doing it.
Neil.

yo55er · Post by **yo55er** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:51 pm

Thanks Mike, Reckless & Neil for getting this thread off to a good start. Perhaps you could pass on some tips and advice to the forum of your experiences. Observation, certainly plays a huge part in driving responsibly. I have been a Lollipop man for just 3 months and have been nearly run over twice by car drivers who didn't see me. I ask you, how can you not spot nearly 6ft of yellow plus a huge stick. They did. Tell me do the driver advance courses advocate 'Lifesavers' as the bike course does? and is there a 'Roadcraft Manual' for drivers?
Cheers
Dave

talkingcars · Post by **talkingcars** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:35 pm

I have always been a keen driver attending a driving awarness program when I was 19.

When I trained as a driving instructor I advanced my skills to pass part 2 of the qualification process. The standard required for a pass is at the same level as a police class 2 driver. The style one has to drive to is different to but no less precise than the Roadcraft. I still endovour to drive at this level and I firmly beleive that my driving is all the better for it.

Since retiring my teaching licence I have gone on to take LGV C and C+E where, again, one has to drive to a higher standard than a normal car driver.

I have to admit that I do drive more on auto pilot than I did 20 years ago but I still sometimes do a commentry drive just to keep my mind fresh.

Reckless Rat · Post by **Reckless Rat** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:42 am

Both car roadcraft & biker's roadcraft are available. They're on sale on Amazon, just search for "Roadcraft". There are subtle differences between the biker 'system' and car driver's 'system', the main one being the "livesafer" shoulder check for bikers. However... many car drivers never use their mirrors and the final mirror check/livesaver can be indispensable. Awareness of everything around you, both in front and behind (as well as to the side) is a fundamental part of 'observation' and self preservation. Bikers in particular, because of their vulnerability have to be particularly aware of what others might do in order to avoid an accident or an unpleasant experience. It's almost impossible to steer round something under emergency braking conditions on a bike, so always leave plenty of safety margin. If you ride at 10/10ths you'll eventually come unstuck.

Being aware of where the danger exists & positioning yourself safely is all part of the "Roadcraft" message.

"Sorry mate I didn't see you" is an all to familiar message from a numpty car driver emerging into the path of a biker. However... an alert rider can (most of the time) identify and react to the potential danger so that if the unexpected occurs, he/she can avoid it.

"Always expect the unexpected"

Round every blind corner expect the biggest bloody furniture van parked on your side of the road with it's ramp down. If you're driving/riding so you can always stop in the distance you can see to be clear, then you can either stop, or prepare to steer around it. If you end up in the back, then you're a numpty.

Next time you're out in the country - look at the corners and bends. Every hole in the wall/hedge or bite mark on a tree tells a tale of someone who got it wrong. The hole is always just after the apex of the bend relative to the direction of travel... just imagine if you were the poor sod coming the other way when it happened.

Slow in, fast out.

Your Toyos might make your MG stick like **** to a blanket but they're no use if you can't stop in time... the one thing they can't overcome is Newton's Laws of motion. Super grip just means when it goes wrong you crash faster.

Post by **Mykel** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:39 pm

Reckless Rat wrote:Round every blind corner expect the biggest bloody furniture van parked on your side of the road with it's ramp down.

Ha, Bruce, that reminds me of one lesson when I was in driving school for my biker's license (took that long after the one for cars). Our local pub was situated on a sharp bend, 120 degrees I should say. Obviously, this was a place I knew oh so well

So the driving instructor took me there on the bike and told me to turn round into what actually is a petty alley. Yet not petty enough for the dump lorry to pass through. As I had hardly been there in the mornings, I didn't expect anyone to come out of that narrow path, especially not an elephant-like orange monster. As it was raining (which was common during my lessons), I slipped on the brake and made it flat out on the ground. What a laugh!

Morale: Never, NEVER EVER assume you know a road well enough to forget about precautions!

Mykel

yo55er · Post by **yo55er** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:11 pm

I've just purchased Roadcraft, the police drivers handbook, as suggested, from Amazon. The cost 1p plus £2.88 p&p, so a bargain I reckon and there are a few left, so grab yourself a lifesaver for a penny.
If you do go on to Amazon's site, it's worth taking a look at and reading the reviews of the handbook. Most, if not all, are extremely positive.
Dave.

Reckless Rat · Post by **Reckless Rat** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:41 am

Can I just add a comment here about Police Drivers. Having spent time trying to teach them how to get from A to B without bouncing off something it's worth pointing out that the majority of them these days have little or no training in safe driving techniques. Local panda drivers generally have no authority to exceed speed limits or drive like Mad Max on blues & twos. Many of them have just been for an assessment and given a basic driving permit. The only ones who have had 'Advanced' training are those that work in response type rôles. However there is a world of difference between the abilities of some officers in response and a lot of them I wouldn't trust to drive a bin lorry never mind a Mistubishi Evo X.

Old style Traffic Cops have generally had a basic 3 week 'Standard' course a two week 'Initial Advanced/Response' course and then a three week Advanced course which includes pursuit & response training, with refresher training every three years thereafter. The ones driving the response car today at your local nick have probably only had a couple of weeks basic advanced training to level 2. They are the ones that keep the bodyshops in business.

In the old days only the Class One advanced drivers got to work in Traffic. The "white top" on their cap was a token of the training they had received and the expertise which they had developed.

Passing out at Grade 1 Class 1 at Lancs Police Driving School, Preston used to give you the opportunity of taking the school Bentley 3 Litre out for a spin (if dry) or the Lagonda (if wet). Both these pre-war classics were sold off a few years ago by a senior officer that was more interested in bean-counting than the school's heritage.

Mike H · Post by **Mike H** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:09 am

Reckless - thanks for the clarification on the current levels of police training. It's interesting to see how things have changed over the years!

After I originally passed the IAM test, I did some 'further advanced' training (as was then offered by my local IAM group) with a retired police instructor from the Devizes driving school. He eventually retired 'properly' and moved away from the area but I was fortunate enough to then have a Class One police driver to see through that phase of my development (prior to my becoming Chief Observer of the local group). That was a real eye opener, and we spent many hours studying various aspects of advanced driving, clocking up many hundreds of miles. He was subsequently promoted and moved away (perhaps it's the effect I have on them?

), but I'm fortunate enough to now have a personal friend in the IAM South West Staff Examiner, who I like to think of as my mentor in case of need

Reckless Rat · Post by **Reckless Rat** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:34 pm

Every so often I will post a "Well I never thought about that" comment. The majority of problems encountered whilst driving can usually be identified by a lack of forward observation or poor anticipation of what's around you. In the "Roadcraft" manual there are a number of observation links which are just plain common sense, but which when missed put a driver in a situation of increased risk, even if unintentional.

For example...

You're driving along a road and you notice in front of you a big red thing with two decks. Yes, it's a bus. What do buses do? You're right. They stop at bus stops. So what are the observation links?

As sure as eggs are eggs the bus is going to stop at a bus stop, eventually. If you're so close to the back of the bus that you can read (Conforms to BS au 145a) on the number plate, then you're too close. When it eventually stops at the next bus stop you're going to end up stuck behind it while everyone else drives around you.

So what's the answer? Keep your distance & focus on what's in front of the bus. What's there will dictate what it will do next. If there's someone on the top deck walking towards the stairs then you can guarantee that he/she has already rung the bell 'cos they want to get off. Where is the bus stop? Can you see it? (a lot of them have bus shelters) Is there someone there trying to flag it down? If you can't see then you're either blind or too close so you can't see past. Back off a bit to improve your visibility. Be prepared to stop. If the bus is stopping, can you overtake it safely? If the bus has already stopped, where are the passengers that have just got off it? Are they going to walk out round the front of the bus into your path? Can you stop? Can you avoid them? If you can't it's YOUR fault, even though they're stupid... no use moaning when you've got an old biddy and a shopping trolley on your bonnet, they have a tendency to damage the lacquer.

When you do stop behind something, always leave enough room so you can move off if something untoward happens with the vehicle in front. If you can just see the whole of the rear tyres where they contact the road surface that's usually enough. Closer than that you're probably going to have to reverse a bit. "Tyres and Tarmac" - remember it. It might save the front of the car if your foot slips off the clutch in traffic - having said that, if you're stationary for more than a count of five, then put the handbrake on, gear in neutral and rest your left leg. It's easier on yourself AND the clutch.

Mike H · Post by **Mike H** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:14 pm

Absolutely - ding a ling

Happened to me twice over the weekend, although not with buses, when approaching parked cars. In both cases, on relatively wide roads, the vehicle in front has driven up to a row of parked vehicles and stopped behind the last vehicle for the opposing traffic. The manoeuvre to get past the parked cars then necessitates putting the front offside wing in danger when swinging out. Correct positioning, and presenting the car to the on coming traffic, would have allowed the driver to negotiate the parked vehicles safely without inconveniencing any other road users. A bit of thought is all it takes - sadly lacking these days!

And what is it about overtaking? Why does no one practice this art any more and then get agitated when other drivers do?

Alan D. · Post by **Alan D.** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:56 pm

I passed mine at 20 and it absolutely stays with you. I think it enhances your enjoyment of the driving experience and I am fairly certain I'd probably not be here by now if I had not done this at an early age. (prompted by the fact that all my mates kept writing off their parent's cars!). I went on to become an instructor within the group network and got several of the aforementioned mates through their tests too.

Stan_B · Post by **Stan_B** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:42 pm

Do they still do that shuffling the steering wheel through your hands thing at 10 to 2 ? It's always put me off doing one of these courses as its so unatural with a small steering wheel sports car designed so you can chuck it around while crossing your arms if you need to. In rally cross you are not allowed to move your hands on the wheel so you know where the fronts are pointing when you land. I did learn a colassal amount from Paul Ripley, and the biggest thing , as ever was getting your head right.

Reckless Rat · Post by **Reckless Rat** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:34 pm

As far as I know I think they have relaxed their thinking on the steering, but suggest that a driver's hands remain at the 10 to two position rather than shuffling under normal driving conditions. However... never forget that there is a world of difference between doing rally cross and dealing with day to day driving. The Police method does not teach you to be a fast driver, or a racing driver, merely a safe one. remember that Roadcraft was initially written in the 1930s when cars didn't have power steering and often had highly geared steering which necessitated far more 'shuffling' than in the present day.

However, I will add a caveat - if you grip the steering wheel tightly with both hands, you will reduce the level of sensitivity in your actions and risk 'handlebaring' the steering which can be very uncomfortable to a passenger. This can also heighten the likelyhood of a loss of control if you are driving towards the edges of adhesion (which if you're following roadcraft should never occur - never drive at 10/10ths or you'll eventually come unstuck). Keep it smooth. If you can't drive smoothly when you're trying to, think about how it must feel to others when you're not!

The police "system" has been in use for the best part of 60 years without major changes. It does work, if properly applied.

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