MGF/TF 1.8 turbo manifold

webba · Post by **webba** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:10 pm

I am a a very delicate stage of negotiation and will reveal all in the next 48hrs

Post by **Rob Bell** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:40 pm

Fair play

Post by **Rob Bell** » Fri May 08, 2015 11:00 am

Update time!

With the BBR manifold jig supplied by Mykel and Cadde delivered to Power Speed, I gave the go-ahead to get a manifold made up a couple of days ago. The completed article is now ready to collect! Happily it appears that it has taken the guys less fabrication time than expected (we've not gone for an equal-length manifold - just something sensible) - and as a result, the manifold is around £100 less than previously thought to fabricate.

A jig will be made, so if anyone else wants to follow the same path, they can

Attached are some nice pictures of the finished piece, finished at the moment in matt black high temperature paint:

I just need to find some time to go down to Kent and collect it!

The next step will be to source an appropriate turbo, and then to get a suitable down pipe made.

webba · Post by **webba** » Fri May 08, 2015 8:22 pm

The Jig from Caddie has 1 major flaw imo it has moved the turbo not only closer to the engine block but it has also moved the turbo about 60cm to the left which now fouls the oil filter you can get round this by having a smaller oil filter but it leaves no room for a oil cooler sandwich plate.

Cadde · Post by **Cadde** » Sat May 09, 2015 10:09 am

Yeah, your are right Adi ... i think the bbr guys put it there , to fit it straight lined to the exhaust underneath ... its an assumption , right ...

At this point i´m not going to put such an oilcooler sandwich plate in , maybe later, if its necessary, i will react to this ...

i would angle the oilfilter about 90 degrees pointing to the middle of the earth ...

When the engine is out , an easy thing to do , i think , if you have the right tools ...

As i dont have any usable tools , i passed on this , doing it in the first place ...

And again , flow wise , Rob´s manifold should be better than mine. Looks cool, too.

Good to know that one of these will fit instantly , when i have somedays the pennys to upgrade ...

When i´m honest , i would build a manifold by myself , as ive learned it 30 years ago ...

Tools , i need some tools ... and some money would be great , too ... as always ...

Cadde · Post by **Cadde** » Sat May 09, 2015 10:21 am

@Adi :

as you dont already have fabricated the manifold, Adi , why dont you put it , where you want it to be ?

For an non equal lenght log type one , it should be easy to do ...

And if i look in my engine bay now , there would be also enough space to get it away from the engine block.

If you want it, you can certainly do it your preferred way !

Post by **Mykel** » Sun May 10, 2015 7:41 am

Moving the turbo to the left has not been done by BBR without a reason, I’m afraid. In doing so, they managed to fit a rather large turbocharger to an F/TF without requiring any work on the bulkhead or subframe. Also, the routing of the air intake to the turbo isn’t affected by the coolant pipes. A clever move, but of course you are right, this collides with fitting a sandwich plate.

One possible solution could be to fit the oil filter plate from a Trophy/TF 160, which has the connections for the water/oil-cooler underneath. This would obviously need some additional work, as there also has to be another pressurised outlet for the oil feed to the turbocharger, but I think this should be possible.

I am really looking forward to see the manifold in the flesh (probably before you do, Rob

), it looks brilliantly made. I will also cross-check with them that a 75/ZT turbocharger will be a straight fit, as both the inlet port (circular !) and the studs/bolts are a bit different on that one.

Post by **Rob Bell** » Sun May 10, 2015 12:31 pm

Thanks Mykel

Post by **Mykel** » Tue May 19, 2015 5:56 am

Whilst picking up the jig on my way home from MGFIM yesterday, I was able to have a look at the manifold Powerspeed have created. It’s a magnificent piece of art, rigid but surprisingly lightweight. I’d say not more than half of what the forged one from BBR puts on the scale, maybe less. Which is a good idea, as this will put less extra strain onto the head (and the gasket). There’s still some work left to do, like getting the flange face flush, but apart from that, I am very impressed!

From the welds it can be seen how much work goes into this, so unfortunately the price for getting one made is a bit prohibitive.

Post by **Rob Bell** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:49 am

As predicted, you got to see it before me Mykel!

Hopefully I can get down to Ashford this weekend to collect it. Then there is the question of what turbo to use with it.

Perhaps I should take the path of least resistance and purchase a GT2052 as originally found on the engine? At least the MEMS3 map will at least work!!!

Now the question is whether I can get a Rover 75 MEMS3 to talk with my dear old 1995 MGF! Hopefully Mark can programme it to "learn" the Lucas 5AS immobiliser. Either that, or I shall need to obtain a Stepspeed MEMS3 and wiring loom (the latter may be required anyway because the Rover puts the engine management in a different place).

Mykel, does the flange need machining?

webba · Post by **webba** » Tue May 19, 2015 12:40 pm

it is my belief that the Rover 75 uses a BMW ecu. I could be wrong .Imombilser off is standard option from ZandF and you can use either a stepspeed ecu or a standard mems3 ecu the stepseed ecu will allow electronic boost control and with the standard ecu you use a manual boost controller. The guys at MG lifestyles (or whatever they are called now) will make you a mems 3 conversion lead for approx £50 you will also need a late mgf 120 or tf 135 engine loom then you are good to go

Post by **Rob Bell** » Tue May 19, 2015 1:46 pm

Happily, the Rover 1.8T uses MEMS3 Adi

I can use the existing wiring - the only real question is whether it is more convenient to use an MGF/TF MEMS3 engine loom for the reason mentioned above. Earlier MEMS3 is compliant with Lucas 5AS - and I'd rather keep the immobiliser function

Regarding the conversion lead - thanks for that heads up. Matt Parker and Jon Fisher (and probably many others!) have done this DIY - and actually, I rather fancy the challenge of doing it myself

In the most part, I am told, it is a question of matching the wiring colours - but it will almost certainly require my sitting down with a pair of wiring diagrams, and then being left over with a few cables that the older car's wiring does not make any use of.

webba · Post by **webba** » Tue May 19, 2015 6:56 pm

I am struggling to find detailed information on the mems 3 units and their capability. can you point me towards any tech info Rob?

Post by **Rob Bell** » Tue May 19, 2015 7:13 pm

They are based upon a Motorola chipset Adi - what are you trying to find out?

webba · Post by **webba** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:14 pm

everything

Post by **Rob Bell** » Wed May 20, 2015 9:23 am

Google is your friend

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=motor ... bpUs-bgKAE

webba · Post by **webba** » Wed May 20, 2015 6:51 pm

Google is indeed my friend but ...

Post by **Mykel** » Wed May 20, 2015 7:51 pm

Boys, you are all completely wrong on this.

As to the turbocharger to use, I agree with Rob to use the 2052 LS as found on the 75/ZT 1.8T, best with the complete engine to go with it and all the ancillaries. Although the only hardware difference is to be found in the con rods (to get compression down to 9.5:1), having a complete engine saves the hassle to lower the compression in another way. Also, you will need some bits and bobs which are hard to find on their own, like the special turbo throttle body, the one-way valve for crank case breathing, the alloy fuel rail with the uprated pressure regulator and — expensive! — the injectors. Although the waste gate valve from a Subaru WRX can be used, going the original way and taking the Pierburg one from the 1.8T will be easier as well.

On a 75/ZT the ECU is programmed to use digital sensors, so this won’t work with the rest of the F/TF electronics. What you will need is a MEMS 3 unit from a Stepspeed car, either an F/TF or a 25/ZR. These come with a programmable connector which will be used to control the waste gate valve. All that is needed are the original (analogue) crankshaft and camshaft sensors from a MEMS 3 engine. To fit this to a MEMS 1.9 car you will need the main harness connectors from a later car, which will then hook up to a standard MEMS 3 engine wiring loom.
Mark at Z&F can then provide a suitable map for the said auto ECU to get the turbo engine up to 200 bhp and 270 Nm of torque.

The 2052 LS turbocharger will need the manifold to be equipped with four holes on the downward flange and a circular hole instead of studs and a rectangular hole as per the BBR manifold. The measures are identical, though. The remaining difficulty is the fabrication of a suitable down pipe, which needs to be welded from the original down pipe from a 75/ZT and an F/TF flexi pipe. This will be one of the harder bits to do.

Then there's the coolant and oil connectors to the turbocharger, oil connectors are provided on the turbo block, but the original hoses/tubes won’t fit due to the turbocharger being moved away from its original position. Also, the coolant circuit has to be inserted into the heater circuit. Taking it from the main circuit is no good, as this will not run whilst the ’stat is still closed.

Last but not least, there’s the intercooler to think about. On a 200 bhp setup, this probably needs to be water cooled. On our Blue T this is run on a separate system. Add a water/oil cooler taken from a Trophy or TF 160 to this and you'll be save for hard track day use as well. Oh, and upgrade the cooling circuit to PRT.

Taking all this into account, the 650-ish quid plus VAT for the manifold don't sound too bad, do they?

webba · Post by **webba** » Wed May 20, 2015 9:01 pm

do you have a wiring diagram?

webba · Post by **webba** » Thu May 21, 2015 12:06 am

You are right about the sensors Mykel that is where my confusion came from the 75/zt use a BMW sensor type and configuration that is not used by any other MG Rover car that is why I believed the ecu was also BMW .I am absolutely sure that you can use a normal (non stepspeed)mems 3 ecu and manual boost controller I know many of the ZR K-turbo's run this way.

On the fuel rail front I am not sure what setup you have but most people junk the rover 75 setup(alloy fuel rail) as it has no fuel return and refit the original doner car setup (if it was mems3)

The OEM manifold also has a square exit hole on the turbo flange which is something I was unhappy about .

Most people just plumb the turbo water side in to the main coolant system I have not heard of any problems that way,I always believed the heater circuit on the F/TF was just taken from the hot side of the main circuit via a valve is that not the case?

When I said "you are good to go" I was only talking about ecu's LOL

The whole K-turbo conversion thing is uncommon on MGF's and TF's but many people have or are converting ZR and ZS and apart from the manifold and charge cooler the conversion is the same and is well trodden and documented.

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