Disaster

http://www.ukmgparts.com
Ask the Gurus - Use this board to discuss problems or technical issues you have with your MGF/TF - there's always an expert around to help you!

Moderator: Committee Members

Forum rules
Not many rules really, this board being aimed at technical issues, it shouldn't fall foul (hopefully) of some of the more personal issues that can affect forums.

Rule 1 - Is that you need to think very carefully before posting anything technical or asking anything technical relating to the security system of the car - See 'Security Issues' sticky for more info.

Rule 2 - We (MGF Register) do not support copyright infringement and therefore references to CD ROM, PDF versions or paper copies of the workshop manual (for instance) should not be posted on the forum. We don't want to get into trouble and we'd rather sell you a genuine hard copy through our Regalia shop anyway! :)

Because advice is honestly and freely given in this technical section, much of it will be amateur experienced based, so any information is given in good faith and is not guaranteed as correct.
User avatar
Kjeld Andersen
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:17 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF 1,8 MPI
Location: Randers, Denmark

Disaster

Postby Kjeld Andersen » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:06 pm

Hi all,

Was out to start the F on Friday, but to my scare, the Water was just gone. The tank empty and dry,
but took the dipstick out, and now the oil is about 3 cm. over max., so know where the Water has gone.
Any ideas, as it has been left in the garage since September, not started, so where is the problem?.
HGF or maybe the inlet manifold???

Kjeld :thumbsd:

User avatar
Neil Rushton
Regional Rep
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:37 pm
MGF Register Region: Lancashire
Model of Car: TF135
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land

Re: Disaster

Postby Neil Rushton » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:02 pm

Oh no Keld, I suppose it could be either of those things was there any symptoms last time you ran it?
MG TF 135
CCM SR-40 (1 of 80)
Skoda Citigo 75hp!!!
A share in an English Electric Lightning F6 fighter!!!!

User avatar
Kjeld Andersen
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:17 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF 1,8 MPI
Location: Randers, Denmark

Re: Disaster

Postby Kjeld Andersen » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:28 pm

Hi Neil,

Long time no see, hope we will catch up soon.

The last two runs i had in the F, was a 2500 km trip to Norway, and
a 200 km. trip to Jette & Alans summerhouse, and no problems there.
I did notice over the summer, it lost a bit of coolant when it was in the garage,
but fine when running, so i just don`t get it.

All the best to you both.

Elèn & Kjeld

User avatar
colintf
Committee Member & Regional Rep
Posts: 12290
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 pm
MGF Register Region: Devon & Cornwall
Model of Car: D(s/c) TF160 ZTV8
Location: Bristol / Cornwall (back home!)
Contact:

Re: Disaster

Postby colintf » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:44 pm

Sorry to see this Kjeld
I hope it's easily sorted
Cheers
Colin

Colin Murrell
MGF Register International Liaison Rep
MGF Register Regional Rep for Devon & Cornwall and Cotswold Regions
MGCC Z and V8 Registers Reps for V8 ZT'/ZTTs




http://www.two-sixties.com/main.htm http://www.triple-mracing.com/

User avatar
Neil Rushton
Regional Rep
Posts: 1122
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:37 pm
MGF Register Region: Lancashire
Model of Car: TF135
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land

Re: Disaster

Postby Neil Rushton » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:19 pm

Loosing it when running I can understand but when it's stood in the garage is a mystery?
Ours dumped some coolant on the garage floor a few months ago I took it in to MG place turned out it had a small hole in the radiator!

Nice to hear from you glad you both are ok hope or paths cross in the near future?
MG TF 135
CCM SR-40 (1 of 80)
Skoda Citigo 75hp!!!
A share in an English Electric Lightning F6 fighter!!!!

User avatar
Roverlike
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:08 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe

Re: Disaster

Postby Roverlike » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:32 pm

Unfortunately if you have mix of water and oil, most probably it would be Head Gasket. Why when stationary and engine not running? I would say path for mixing was in creation and while engine was runing heat expanded the material and thus path was still not open. When engine is cold path could be fully utilised as no heat to expand material any more.

Geoff.F
Posts: 2051
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:39 am
MGF Register Region: Midlands

Re: Disaster

Postby Geoff.F » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Hi Kjeld. Great to hear from you but sorry for the news.
I am just finishing mid-life renovation on our car. As you have work to do, then the best approach would be to do both to ensure that the coolant has not seized the piston rings. When is the cambelt change due ???
The car will then be ready for another life.
Take care. Looking forward to partying sometime soon.
Geoff.F

User avatar
nigelandjo
Committee Member & Regional Rep
Posts: 3990
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:44 pm
MGF Register Region: Somerset & Dorset
Model of Car: TF85th x2, TF135
Location: Burnham on Sea
Contact:

Re: Disaster

Postby nigelandjo » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:30 pm

Hi Kjeld ~ hope you get the car back on the road soon.
Nigel May
Somerset & Dorset Regional Rep, Vice Chair, Registrar, Archivist & Membership Secretary
Email: somerset.dorset@mgfregister.org
members@mgfregister.org

MGCC Members register here: http://www.mgfregister.org/registeryourdetails.php

nickmitchell38
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:37 pm
MGF Register Region: Essex
Model of Car: MY VVC
Location: Romford

Re: Disaster

Postby nickmitchell38 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:00 am

I would drain the oil to see if water is present in the sump. I could be the inlet manifold gasket if the car has been stood for some time but could also be a slow external leak

Geoff.F
Posts: 2051
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:39 am
MGF Register Region: Midlands

Re: Disaster

Postby Geoff.F » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:51 am

nickmitchell38 wrote:I would drain the oil to see if water is present in the sump. I could be the inlet manifold gasket if the car has been stood for some time but could also be a slow external leak

" Oil is at least 3 cm over Max" shows where the coolant has gone.
Geoff.F

User avatar
Charless
Posts: 1996
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:52 pm
MGF Register Region: South Coast
Model of Car: '96 MPi (2), 75thVVC
Location: Chilbolton

Re: Disaster

Postby Charless » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:20 am

Kjeld,
The brighter sides being that it didn't let go on the Norway tour, unidentified slight loss had been causing concern all last summer and you have a couple of months to sort it before you could have been driving - but still a horrible discovery.
I wonder if one of the mobile HGF specialists would come over from the UK - getting the head off in situ might give a clearer indication of where it went. Having checked the Stanstead to Aarhus and Aalborg return flights, they are both advertised 'from' under £50. Of course having somewhere to sit or possessing any luggage will cost a lot extra with these jokers! But if you want I can make enquiries.
You still have the best avatar on here,
Charles

User avatar
colintf
Committee Member & Regional Rep
Posts: 12290
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 pm
MGF Register Region: Devon & Cornwall
Model of Car: D(s/c) TF160 ZTV8
Location: Bristol / Cornwall (back home!)
Contact:

Re: Disaster

Postby colintf » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:03 am

Slightly off topic, when is the Norway tour? Is that yearly. ??? Thinking ahead to 2019 :)

Colin Murrell
MGF Register International Liaison Rep
MGF Register Regional Rep for Devon & Cornwall and Cotswold Regions
MGCC Z and V8 Registers Reps for V8 ZT'/ZTTs




http://www.two-sixties.com/main.htm http://www.triple-mracing.com/

User avatar
Kjeld Andersen
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:17 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF 1,8 MPI
Location: Randers, Denmark

Re: Disaster

Postby Kjeld Andersen » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:32 pm

Hi all,

@ Neil: Must be the manifold or HG, as there is no coolant on the floor, and engine is dry, and with
3 cm. ekstra oil, it`s clear where the coolant has gone.

@ Geoff: Cambelt, WP and tensioner was done two years ago, but will do it again now.
We will be over in September, if the bloody thing behave, so hope to see you then.

@ Charles: Yes, nice it did the trip to Norway, and as you might remember, did not use a drop on those
2500 km., but as soon as it have been in the garage, and got stone could, it does, but i will take it out
to Bjarne, and then we will try and fix it in his workshop, only problem, i have no road legal insurance on it at the
moment, and then i will try and make up with myself of witch gasket i will use, but think i will go for the new ML type.
Will give you a call later in the week, if you are in England at the moment.

@ Colin: It was a tour Charles and i did last summer.

As i wrote to Geoff, we hopefully will be over in September, and hope to meet as many of you
as we can. When we get over, i would like to get the car looked over by someone who knows his job, so
where can i go, now Tech-Speed is closed??

All the best to you all, and thanks so far.

Kjeld,

User avatar
Mykel
Regional Rep
Posts: 2627
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:13 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF Mk1&Stepspeed;TF
Location: Schwalmtal, NRW, Germany

Re: Disaster

Postby Mykel » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 am

Hi Kjeld,

sorry to read about your problems, but haven’t we all been there before? So chins up, it should be manageable to fix it.

From your description (tank empty water escaped into the sump) I doubt it’s either of the gaskets’ fault, especially if you have an MLS head gasket fitted. To me this hints to a fault I have now found on four engines and which a good friend and me solved in the same way in all cases.

For the first time I had a similar problem on the Wedgewood steppy, with coolant quickly draining into the sump, causing the oil level to rise. So the head came off and we had a look at everything. No water in the cylinders (which was good), but three out of four liners were loose and could be turned in the block (which obviously was not so good).
We then took a “quick and dirty” approach to solve the problem: pull up the loose liners by about 3 cm, spray loads of brake cleaner on the notch and the seats in the block to clean, then turn them around 360 degrees to clean the notch with a soft cloth soaked in brake cleaner. Turning the liners around another 360 degrees, we applied a bead of Hylomar blue to the notch, waited about 10 minutes for solvent gases to evaporate and then pressed the liners firmly back in place, and immediately refitted the cylinder head with a new gasket. Not a drop lost ever since.

Best wishes and good luck with a speedy repair
Michael
Last edited by Mykel on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
MGF:
1997 MPi BRG HAM, black leather, LHD
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGF Register regional rep for Germany -- germany@mgfregister.org

User avatar
Charless
Posts: 1996
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:52 pm
MGF Register Region: South Coast
Model of Car: '96 MPi (2), 75thVVC
Location: Chilbolton

Re: Disaster

Postby Charless » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:57 am

Brilliant fix Michael - would that be Markus too? If it has worked on cars that regularly do autobahn speeds then it can be regarded as better than temporary.
Kjeld - I thought you would prefer Bjarne did it! He can probably also find you a trailer to get it there as well. Things are looking up; now you just need to go and earn some extra money - life with an MG :)

User avatar
Mykel
Regional Rep
Posts: 2627
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:13 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF Mk1&Stepspeed;TF
Location: Schwalmtal, NRW, Germany

Re: Disaster

Postby Mykel » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:03 am

Yes, Charles, Markus (aka as “the Gasket King”) was on board with me. We often take a slightly different approach to things now, trying out new solutions and easier ways to fix things.
MGF:
1997 MPi BRG HAM, black leather, LHD
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGF Register regional rep for Germany -- germany@mgfregister.org

User avatar
Kjeld Andersen
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:17 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF 1,8 MPI
Location: Randers, Denmark

Re: Disaster

Postby Kjeld Andersen » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:07 pm

Hi Mykel,

That was a new one, but could be the case, and if it is, as i looks to be some job to do for a
man with 10 tumbs, will it be ok if i call you for more info??

Why am i now hoping for it`s just a blown HG?? ohh.

All the best

Kjeld

Geoff.F
Posts: 2051
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:39 am
MGF Register Region: Midlands

Re: Disaster

Postby Geoff.F » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:10 pm

A good reminder to fit the liner clamps when the head is removed,
Geoff.F

User avatar
Reckless Rat
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:01 am
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: 97 1.8mpi in BRG
Location: South of France - in the Gard.

Re: Disaster

Postby Reckless Rat » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:22 pm

A great fix Mykel - makes you wonder how many salvageable engines have been scrapped due to this... have you considered using Loctite 5290?

User avatar
Mykel
Regional Rep
Posts: 2627
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:13 pm
MGF Register Region: Europe
Model of Car: MGF Mk1&Stepspeed;TF
Location: Schwalmtal, NRW, Germany

Re: Disaster

Postby Mykel » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:52 am

@Kjeld: feel free to call me whenever you need assistance! Do you still have my number? But the fix is quite easy once the head is off. Just make sure everything is clean and remember to allow the Hylomar to settle for about 10 minutes before putting the liners back in their seats. Otherwise the solvent in the stuff will make your expansion tank smell like a pub full of heavy drinkers for months! (no other issues, though)

@Bruce: I’m afraid a lot of them have been indeed. Most comments I’d read about loose liners were like “block needs to be machined” or “liner shims must be used”. Tbh I’m not even convinced any more that a so-called “dropped liner” is a real issue at all on the K-series. I have nailed engines together with no stand proud at all and never had a problem with them. If you have a look at the actual thickness of the fire ring part in a head gasket, compared to the overall gauge of the steel layers you will get what I mean. That ring will always adjust itself on compression (when the head bolts are tightened) to give a perfect fit and seal.
That is, as long as the head itself is strong enough to keep the pressure! All engine failures at the fire rings (usually leading to overheating due to air locks by exhaust gases in the coolant circuit) I have experienced were down to a soft cylinder head. This can easily be told from deep indentations around the fire ring area on the head’s face. A couple of years ago, I had such a head machined down by 0.4 mm to get a nice and even surface again, and it failed again after just 2,500 miles. The indentations were back, as machining doesn’t help when the alloy has gone soft.
So to me it’s now a confirmation of the old German proverb “the fish always smells from its head”, and I don’t really care about liner stand proud.

I haven’t considered Loctite before, as Hylomar is readily available from the local parts shop and does the job nicely. Apart from the smell issues, when you’re too quick on reassembly. :lol:
MGF:
1997 MPi BRG HAM, black leather, LHD
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGF Register regional rep for Germany -- germany@mgfregister.org


Return to “Technical - Sponsored by Brown & Gammons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests