FIX, STRIP, SCRAP or sell on? End of my fuse!!

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:50 pm

So some people may have noticed recently I have been sorting out an F that was left doing nothing by a lady living next door... every day I walked past and shook my head and occasionally gave her a tap letting it know there was some love for it....

After about 4 months I couldn't stand seeing it anymore I asked what she was doing with it? Nothing she replied did I want it? Yes so I bought it ... One happy chap..

Now I've used it about 800 miles and the MOT is due 4th July so got it in early and it failed on a few things but the major one was the emissions...

It failed both the CO tests at readings of .668 and .804 So I changed the CAT the LAMBDA and the coolant temp sensor...

The exhaust has been pretty much changed completely with new gaskets and bolts ect... and has failed every time.. NOT a happy chap Checked and cleaned the dizzy cap and checked leads but no change??? even the MOT centre is stumped... We plugged it in and there were no faults the lambda is spiking up and down..

The car is running rich and I've always thought it was using too much fuel how to solve this out of my know how.

I think the car is missing a tiny bit and this could be causing poor emissions???

This forum has always helped me out so what do I do people...

FIX - What do I need to fix?? because I don't know and am out of ideas!! I`m don't fancy paying someone to play around with the cost of lots of parts trying to pass it? Plus I'm out of lucky with the long haired general if I spend much more I`ll need the cash or hearing aids!!

STRIP - Ok an older MK1 F but the parts I could sell might give me some money back?

SCRAP - Worst case going to get about £150 quid if lucky

or sell on - I would need about 400 quid if it was to go, I have a hard top to sell separate in matching colour so hope for at least 200 for it..

So ADVISE AND COMMENTS WELCOME...

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cavaddict · Post by **cavaddict** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:16 pm

Whereabouts are you?

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:21 pm

Im down in dorset

Dingbat · Post by **Dingbat** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:53 pm

Chris.

My TF had a similar problem last MOT. I doesn't get used a lot and the emission readings we're about off the scale. Turns out that the cat had rarely got hot enough to become effective. If your car has been sitting for a while, I suggest a good old Italian tune up. I did a run of about 120 miles, much of it in a lower gear than I'd normally use to get the engine revving. It's a bit noisy doing 70 on the motorway in 4th gear, but it was effective. Took it back the next day and it sailed through with emissions right at the bottom end of the expected range. Oh, and get it really hot before getting to the test centre. HTH Brian

Post by **Rob Bell** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:04 pm

Chris, can you show us the full emissions read out?

HC = Hydrocarbons - basically unburnt fuel; CO = Carbon monoxide - a feature of incomplete combustion; Lambda = the measure of what the engine thinks the mixture is doing

I find this little fault-finding list helpful:

High CO and Low Lambda: is typically caused by a rich mixture which may result from a misfire, faulty lambda sensor or blocked air filter
High HC, high CO and Low Lambda: is typically caused by a rich mixture resultant from a faulty lambda sensor
High Lambda and high O2: this can be caused by a faulty catalyst, but check the following before forking out on a new one: is the oxygen sensor is working, ensure that there are no leaks in the exhaust, that there are no leaks the intake system, also consider the possibility of a faulty mean air pressure (MAP) sensor.
High HC with good CO: probably caused by a misfire, poor engine condition, with high CO fail and a low Lambda the mixture is rich
CO high, lambda high and O2 high: catalyst is likely to be faulty (or Intake leaks etc causing the mixture to lean out).
Lambda fail: if a high fail faulty oxygen sensor, weak mixture, hole in the exhaust. If a low fail then faulty oxygen sensor, rich mixture or misfire

talkingcars · Post by **talkingcars** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:09 pm

I had a similar fail on my F a couple of years ago, turned out to be a small leak on the exhaust manifold gasket.

Also consider the airfilter.

mgfsoldier · Post by **mgfsoldier** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:28 pm

He has high HC and CO lambda passed

He swapped the cat and the lambda already with parts from europarts not 2nd hand parts.

talkingcars · Post by **talkingcars** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:09 pm

Is the car MEMS1.9 or MEMS3? If it is the latter you can plug in an OBD2 reader and check the coolant temp that the ECU is reading.

Other items that may have an effect are spark plugs and airfilter.

mgfsoldier · Post by **mgfsoldier** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:34 pm

Its 1.9 unfortunatly

Martin_Bmth · Post by **Martin_Bmth** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:22 am

Mate, sounds so much like my Mabel. Lad with the manifold had a fettle this week and is italien tuning hopefully this week (not got the heart to do a proper italien tune myself - bounce of the rev limitier for a while) and might be back for its retry at the dreaded mot. He's a lovely chap but very bad at time keeping/ dates and stuff! If we're in the same boat still / i get closer to the finishing post im happy to buy some second hand bits with ya / swop bits to get one of them through and then hopefully the other one too!. im pretty sure im mems 1.9 and im sure i read somewhere to run the car you dont need to reprogram anything... maybe thats if your not fussed about having a working alarm, but thats a very vague recollection

Martin

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:32 pm

HI sorry i hadnt seen these posts.. so far I have changed the Lambda for a genuine Rover one and it all seemed better, took it to the MOT centre today and failed again the HC was 460 and should be 200 and the CO level was high again. so a change but not for the better....

Rob Bell as you`ve sated it should indicate the LAMBDA but that has done very little...

Daryl at mgf reborn kindly donated his time and knowledge and gave some advice, hence the lambda change.. so I am left with these options

1. Check and clean air pressure (MAP) sensor, i`m not sure on this but i understand that it goes into the ecu and reads some info if the sensor is bust this could be the cause..
2. Replace the new CAT with another ROVER CAT - i`m not convinced on this one that CAT cant do that much you can see through the mesh with ease...
3. Check timing ensure i`m not off slightly - the car appears to run fine but if not i might get mgf reborn to do a CAM belt change it needs doing anyway. I really want to do this myself but i`ve never done one and i`m against time.

So the TAX runs out on 30th and the MOT runs out 4th July so am almost out of time... need to get it passed by the 30th or its getting SORN and then it will be left... arrr

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:37 pm

Martin_Bmth wrote:Mate, sounds so much like my Mabel. Lad with the manifold had a fettle this week and is italien tuning hopefully this week (not got the heart to do a proper italien tune myself - bounce of the rev limitier for a while) and might be back for its retry at the dreaded mot. He's a lovely chap but very bad at time keeping/ dates and stuff! If we're in the same boat still / i get closer to the finishing post im happy to buy some second hand bits with ya / swop bits to get one of them through and then hopefully the other one too!. im pretty sure im mems 1.9 and im sure i read somewhere to run the car you dont need to reprogram anything... maybe thats if your not fussed about having a working alarm, but thats a very vague recollection Martin

Martin thats a very kind offer.. thankyou I am convinsed that I have changed all these parts for no reason I`m no closer to passing with posting happening soon and will be moving again i really need this car to be running..

Post by **Rob Bell** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:03 pm

Well I can certainly understand the frustration!!!

Is the filter clean? There isn't a dead mouse or something blocking the intake to the air box or something similarly daft? What is the idle speed when the engine warms through? Shame you're so far away otherwise I'd happily have a look at the MG for you...

My hunch is that this is something really simple - but often that simple thing is hard to find!

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:33 pm

Rob Bell wrote:Well I can certainly understand the frustration!!!

Is the filter clean? There isn't a dead mouse or something blocking the intake to the air box or something similarly daft? What is the idle speed when the engine warms through? Shame you're so far away otherwise I'd happily have a look at the MG for you...

My hunch is that this is something really simple - but often that simple thing is hard to find!

Hi rob yes frustration

I got the car with a k&n filter fitted it was that way when she got it, there is no box left but the intake pipes are fitted still... Would just need the box a filter and the pipe to the TB to replace it...

I replaced the TB for a alloy one still 48mm though so no more sticking but this was from a TF I'm am sure it wouldn't make any difference..

Idle speed sits at 900 - 950 ish so I think fine... No hunting no missing no engine wobble that I can tell it is a 16 year old car though...

Thanks for you offer I wish I wasn't so far away I'm about to go and play with the MAP sensor.. More to follow MIT pictures!!

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:58 pm

So I followed the pipe from the ECU..(engine off at this point)

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Found it went into this box - is this the MAP Sensor??

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Checked it against the injection housing

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All seems fit although it wasn't flush on it all so pushed it on a little.. I took the pipe off the ecu and blew down it and I could feel and hear the air flowing through couldn't see or feel any leaks in the pipe.. I then replaced the pipe and started the engine when I removed the pipe the engine ran very poor until I replaced it so. does this simple check rule out the MAp SENSOR is this another bad apple??

chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:06 pm

So also in the process I was investigating other things what is this part I understand it to be some sort of carbon filter?? There is a connection on it with the engine running I connected and disconnected the connection.... NOTHING HAPPENED?

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chrisrigby · Post by **chrisrigby** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:17 pm

OK more research.. as my F is a mk1 97 plate 1.8 NON VVC it appears that the MAP sensor is built into the ECU is that correct as I cant find a replacement part..

Something else to add... this is way out there! stand by when the car has been going into the mot bay after a few minutes at high idle test 3000RPM the EPAS light comes on... but when I drive it about and then start to drive power steering comes back on and there is no problem... could this fault indicate some sort of ECU fault?? and therefore result in the emissions?

But to add I have the idea the power steering ecu is separate

What is the difference between MEMS1.9 or MEMS3 how can I tell, I suspect MEMS 1.9 is mk1 F and MEMS3 mk2?

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/ItemImages/ ... 100820.jpg

Post by **Rob Bell** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:25 pm

Yours is MEMS 1.9 and yes, the MAP sensor is built into the unit. The photo you show is a vacuum junction box.

You'll need some diagnostics kit to diagnose a sensor fault

I have a spare MEMS 1.9 (as you do). We could swap over and see whether that makes a difference... Again, shame you're not closer!

PS the EPAS light coming on with the car being revved when stationary is normal: the EPAS ecu gets both an engine and road speed signal: if there is a mismatch it'll assume a fault and go into fail/safe mode. It deactivates pretty quickly when it gets a reasonable road speed signal though

PPS charcoal canister is for emissions/ engine breather system. Disconnecting won't have much impact on engine running.

mgfsoldier · Post by **mgfsoldier** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:30 pm

Rob Bell wrote: PPS charcoal canister is for emissions/ engine breather system. Disconnecting won't have much impact on engine running.

Could this being bust effect the HC reading?

Post by **Rob Bell** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:35 pm

No, I'd doubt it: it's used to trap engine fumes when the engine is switched off.

A faulty map sensor could be a possibility: if you disconnect the vacuum feed, the engine does run rich. Ideally you need a live data stream from the ecu to read what the map is "seeing" - but reading the fault codes can provide an answer. And yes I can read fault codes... Chris, if you happen to be in London drop by and we'll try and sort this problem!!!

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