OBD Socket (and details of MGF technical day - June 15th)

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Rob Bell
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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:51 am

You're welcome to pop over any time Phil. :) Really happy you've got the airbag ECU sorted :)

I am sure I could lend you my EPAS ECU if you fancied the idea of getting your system to read all the MG's systems? Might be useful for all those people fitting MGF steering columns into kit and classic cars! :lol:

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by pscan.eu » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:42 pm

pscan.eu wrote:Time for an update.

MEMS 1.9 and MEMS 2J are working (as before). I also found that this works on a 1999 Mini which is useful.

ABS 5.0 protocol from Robs MGF as working at least on my emulator, but I need a repeat visit to Rob to test it on an actual car. However some of the packet timing is not exactly as I would like it (the emulator doesn't care but an actual car might). This should be fixed in a couple of days.

EC5/RC5 airbag protocol is working well on an airbag ECU that Rob gave me. I'm hoping that this will also be the Mini protocol.

I am desperately trying to get a second prototype made so that I can test that and start marketing it. It would be cool to have something on kickstarter before Christmas but it will be tight.
ABS5.0 is working well now, and appears to work all right on a Rover 45 which has ABS5.3.

This weekend I pretty much cracked MEMS3. These ECUs are EOBD compliant but I have noticed that there are a lot more parameters available if you use the MEMS3 proprietary mode. I used a Rover 45 (year 2003 I think) to crack this one.

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:00 am

Absolutely awesome work Philip! :D

Now if you can actually get to access the fuel and ignition map and change parameters, then that'll save a lot of us getting aftermarket ECU's to map for performance upgrades!

BTW this reminds me to send you that information on how to reset the oil-service indicator on the Rover 75... :)

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by pedals » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:29 am

I've just found this thread. Is there a simple way of determining which system any car is fitted with?
Ours is a 1.8i MY2000

Thanks

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:43 am

MY2000 is fitted with MEMS3.

All MGFs before 1999 had either MEMS1.9 (1.8 MPi) or MEMS2J (VVC).

All two-seater MGs after that had MEMS3 - although early MY2000 had different maps - and don't have the post-cat lambda (from Jan 2001)

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by pedals » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:50 pm

Thanks Rob

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Mykel » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:28 pm

Not quite so, Rob. My Lilibet is a MY 2000 VVC (off the line 10 March) and still runs on MEMS 2J. The precise way to tell is the VIN: MEMS 3 was fitted from 522573 onwards.
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGZR:
2001 ZR 160 in Solar Red, LHD, LPG conv
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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:33 am

Thanks for that correction Mykel - of course I should have remembered that since we were looking at your 2J live data feed on the T300!!! :lol:

Is there an official name change for MEMS3 between pre-EU3 and post-EU3? If there isn't how about we nominally call it MEMS3.0 and MEMS3.1 respectively? Or maybe MEMS3-EU2 versus MEMS3-EU3? Perhaps the latter as it is more descriptive?

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Mykel » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:44 pm

Afaik all MEMS 3 equipped cars are Euro-3 emission compliant. One of the Euro 3 requirements is indeed the post-cat lambda, and the "bent" cats with the second boss have also been fitted from VIN 522573 onwards.

Imho the confusion was triggered by MGR speccing the cars up to MY2000 trim and other features, such as colour coded windscreen surround and bright front indicators from mid 1999, while still some of the Euro-2 ECUs were dug out from the bins at Longbridge. So they just fitted the old stuff, until it was gone, I guess, wouldn't have been a first off, would it? 8-) . The empty-bin-alert then came much earlier in case of MPis than with the VVCs, still they managed to schedule the changeover to one fixed VIN across all ranges. So there may have been some kind of intelligent data recording behind the scenes nevertheless.

Well, data recording behind the scenes - that's something you Brits are quite good at anyway, arent you? (ducks-and-runs for-cover)
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGZR:
2001 ZR 160 in Solar Red, LHD, LPG conv
Classic:
1972 MG Midget MkIII RWA in Blaze Red
MGF Register regional rep for Germany -- germany@mgfregister.org

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:39 pm

Hmmm, I am not 100% sure if I am honest Mykel - but I was under the impression that MEMS1.9 converted to MEMS3 pre-2001 (EU3) - an impression that has been reinforced by chats with Mark at Z&F (and he should know).

The engine numbers are interesting. MY2000 cars got a new engine number - MPi M15/M16 from 1999, which changed to M09/M10 with EU3 calibration. MY2000 VVC used M17/M18 before becoming M11/M12 with EU3.

Mykel, could you check your engine number? Might be interesting to see whether yours is an M10 (Lilibet doesn't have aircon?)

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Mykel » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:27 pm

I have now looked again at the list at Rimmer's and cross-checked that against Dieter's EPC, and in fact there seems to be some truth in what Mark and you say. How could I have doubted :oops:

In fact, from VIN 522573 all cars had MEMS 3 fitted. But for the MPi's there are three different NNNxxxxxx ECUs mentioned (which run MEMS 3) to be fitted up to VIN 522572. So these will indeed have run with the Mk1 exhausts less post cat lambda, i e Euro 2 compliant.

Unfortunately, neither the EPC nor Rimmerbros give a "starting from" VIN. What I found interesting is that one of these ECUs was introduced with the stepspeed which apparently can't run on MEMS 1.9, as there is no way to read the data from the 2nd sensor in the dual oil temp unit fitted to the Mk2 cars, the one with the 4-pin round connector. This information is vital for the steppy to run properly. As is for Euro 3 emission control.

So after these second thoughts I now think that the first MEMS 3 units came along with the introduction of the Stepspeeds, shortly afterwards being taken over by the manual MPi's as well. In fact there are two different part numbers for the manual and automatic cars' ECUs, but they can be swapped.

With the VVC they took some more time to move up to MEMS 3, in fact the question is, are there any 145 bhp VVCs around with MEMS 3 or are those all Trophys?

I'll have a look at my engine numer tomorrow.
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGZR:
2001 ZR 160 in Solar Red, LHD, LPG conv
Classic:
1972 MG Midget MkIII RWA in Blaze Red
MGF Register regional rep for Germany -- germany@mgfregister.org

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:46 am

I had assumed that VVC would have become MEMS3 at the same time as the MPi - but perhaps not - afterall, the VVC MEMS3 is a different animal to the one fitted to MPi engines. Perhaps they continued with 2J right up to 2001?

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Mykel » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:09 pm

From the sources I have access to, the first "proper" MEMS 3 VVC was 522577, off the production line on 1st September 2000. She was a Wedgie for the UK market, and she was a 145 bhp standard VVC. Which answers the question from my last post. I'd like to know if there's anyone around here with a Euro 3 compliant VVC with a lower VIN.

Ah, and I have looked up my engine number, which is 18K4KM18 340693. So it's definitely a Euro 2 engine, but that is what it says in my registration papers anyway. But as these are not based on an official MGR CoC document, it is a bit vague.
MGTF:
2004 TF 135 in Monogram Spectre, black leather, RHD
MGZR:
2001 ZR 160 in Solar Red, LHD, LPG conv
Classic:
1972 MG Midget MkIII RWA in Blaze Red
MGF Register regional rep for Germany -- germany@mgfregister.org

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:29 pm

Good to have that confirmation Mykel - it is possible that all 18K4K M18 engines are MEMS2J - and you'd think, logically, that MEMS3 would have ushered in a new engine designation (18K4K M09/M10) - but there again, this is Rover we're talking about, so expect the unexpected... :lol:

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Rob Bell » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:12 pm

I spoke to Philip last night to see how his diagnostic system is coming along.

A quick recap, Philip is a car enthusiast who also is a bit of an electronics and encryption guru. He's actually into Peugeots but since the Chinese have come in with knock-off diagnostic systems for PSA vehicles, he looked elsewhere and realised that there is some lack of coverage at the enthusiast level for Rover management diagnostic systems. That and the fact that there are loads of enthusiasts for those cars so-equipped (MGs, Lotus, Caterham etc etc).

He and a few friends have been working in their own time to build this system, and I've been donating my vehicles (MGF MEMS1.9, MG ZTT 2.0CDTi) and time for him to reverse engineer a diagnostic interface and electronic protocols.

From what Philip now tells me, the system works well with MEMS1.9, MEMS2J and MEMS3 as well as the Siemens ECU fitted to my 2003 diesel. He also mentions that he's getting more information from MEMS3 running in proprietary mode than you might get from a generic OBD2 reader (haven't seen this myself though). In other good news, he can also read and clear faults from the ABS and SRS ECU's - although unfortunately he can't get any further at the moment with the EPAS ECU (a bit of a shame, but probably limited use???) He also gets reliable live data from all engine ECUs (including MEMS1.9!) and from the ABS ECU (nice).

The system is getting close to being sales ready - he'll be popping over to see whether the pre-production interface actually works on my cars, and thereafter will probably need to get around 50 orders before committing this kit to production.

I have absolutely no financial connection with this, nor do I have any plans to do so - but I think it has been a project worth supporting (especially if he can get it to read and then re-write fuel and ignition maps ;)).

I think there is a demand for a product like this - particularly for pre-OBD2 compliant cars (like all mine are - d'oh!!!).

How many here would consider buying it? I've just emailed Philip to find out what his target price might be - but let me know the level of interest: hopefully we can make this happen :)

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Phil_B » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:08 pm

I'd be up for this Rob, price dependent as always. Would it be worth putting him in touch with the chap from ZandF as well?
Phil Brindley

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by pscan.eu » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:54 pm

I have been working on the price for this. I see that Rob is cranking up the pressure :-)

I am currently waiting for quotes from companies that build circuit boards, companies that make plastic boxes and companies that make cable assemblies. Until I know the costs of the parts I can't really commit to a price.

I have seen these group buys cause a lot of issues on other forums, and because I probably have potential customers on multiple forums my feeling is that it's best to handle this on kickstarter.

The only downside of this is that kickstarter make their money by charging 10% (I think) but I suppose that this is fairly cheap compared with other sales channels.

I won't really have any news on this for a week or so until my new mk3 prototype arrive I'm afraid.

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by Charless » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:58 pm

I'll be up for one.
How about a self assembly kit (like Velleman)? This might be significantly cheaper if the initial production run numbers start low - or just the pcb and container with punters self sourcing standard connectors and soldering them to the provided wiring diagram?

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by carlvk » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:59 am

Charless wrote:I'll be up for one.
How about a self assembly kit (like Velleman)? This might be significantly cheaper if the initial production run numbers start low - or just the pcb and container with punters self sourcing standard connectors and soldering them to the provided wiring diagram?
I would like this too.
I often see different levels of reward for different investments on kickstarter, maybe worth considering.

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Re: OBD Socket

Post by pscan.eu » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:00 pm

The PCB has surface mount components including things like a microprocessor and a CANbus chip. There are over 100 components on there.
Really the only scope for home building is snapping it into the box, and making the cable from the box to the car yourself.
I'm not ideologically against this but it's not going to give you a massive saving.

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