Oil cooler for MGF VVC

[philip giles]

Hi all retired MGZT 190 and purchased this year a 1998 MGF vvc owner, having rebuilt engine head gasgets and belts along with all usual aditions I use the car for track days have had a test run at Bedford, we had no problems with over heating in fact very good power up to 7,200 rpm however with sustained high revs we had the oil temperature go over 150 deg c we didnt run car we slowed and allowed the oil to cool I have filled engine with mobil 1 10x60 racing oil fully synthetic. Has any one have ideas on installing an oil cooler to help the temp control we will be doing Silverstone and Spa next year so I want to get this issue resolved. any info would be much appreciated.
Regardsa
Phil Giles

[Rob Bell]

Hi Phil,

There are two options regarding oil coolers. One is the air to oil cooler, the other the water to oil cooler. There are pros and cons to both installations (aren't there always?)

The air to oil cooler:

This is probably the simplest to fit - although you need to consider exactly where to put your oil radiator. The "usual" position is up front under or either in front or behind the coolant radiator (Eduardo fitted his behind the rad - see http://mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/DIY/oi ... /index.htm). The MGF Cup cars also used front-mounted oil rads.

Two problems:
(1) the long distance between the engine and the oil rad means a larger oil volume and the risk of oil pressure drops and
(2) over-cooling the oil.

The latter can be avoiding by using a thermostatically controlled adapter plate for the oil cooler take off.
The former can be avoided by mounting the oil cooler radiator inside the engine bay. One of my co-competitors in the MGCC Sprint Championship placed their rad behind the offside engine bay air intake grille (they removed the standard engine bay cooling fan). They reckoned they got excellent cooling from this arrangement which is very encouraging. Whether you'd want to loose the engine bay cooling fan is a separate question!

The water to oil cooler:

This was the solution used by MG Rover for the TF160 - a small oil radiator sat in a bath of engine coolant. Water has excellent thermal carrying properties - much better than air - but there is less of a thermal gradient because the coolant is running at much higher temperatures than the ambient air temperature! But there is an advantage to this type of arrangement in that it can pre-warm your oil - and the Elise racing guys got great results using this type of oil cooler.

Options here are to use the TF160 oil cooler (obtain all the connections, pipes, oil sandwich adapter for the oil filter, the coolant rail etc), or use a Laminova type. The Laminova oil coolers are available in a variety of sizes from Mocal - you'd probably only need a small or medium sized one, and these can be packaged inside the engine bay - Allan put his on the rear subframe perimeter bar. An alternative scrap yard source of similar oil coolers are transmission coolers - for example off the diesel R25/R45. Gerry has plumbed one of these in his TF135 (up front in his case). Again with good results.

Personally I am opting for the TF160 sandwich oil cooler - but annoyingly I forgot to get all the other bits at the same time! D'oh!!! So now need to find the coolant pipes, oil pips, mounting plate and oil filter adapter sandwich plate. But if you are using your F on track, it will prove a good investment.

You might also want to consider getting a sump baffle too - particularly if you are planning to use sticky track-day tyres?

[philip giles]

Thanks Rob thats a clear and usefull set on info I will go looking for a Trophy one these are like rocking horse poo ?? thanks again
Regards
Phil

[Helsbyman]

I am wrong of course but I thought all VVCs Fs and TFs had oil coolers

[160steve]

Thanks Rob thats a clear and usefull set on info I will go looking for a Trophy one these are like rocking horse poo ?? thanks again
Regards
Phil

They will be, trophys don't have them

Only the tf160 had them!

[Rob Bell]

And there are quite a few TF160s about, so finding one shouldn't be too difficult.

Interestingly I don't believe that the ZR160, which has an otherwise identical engine, used an engine cooler - perhaps because being a front-mounted engine, it gets more oil cooling from airflow around the block and sump?

[philip giles]

Thanks all I am looking for a TF 160 as I reply going to a Rover MG breaker called Rover Man in Tyseley Birmingham (near steam museum) o1217080006
has nothing but 75,25, 45, MGZR, MGZS, MGZT loads of goodies.
Regards
Phil

[Rob Bell]

Keep looking: they're out there

[Geoff.F]

When I bought my MY2000 Steptronic it repeatedly hit an OT of 150 on hot days driving in Switzerland. The gauge on early Mk2 cars had overeading problems however mine was correct with a calibrated slave digital indicatorI. I gave the car Spec to a well known MG "Specialist" north of London and brought the car to UK for them to fit their air/oil cooler kit. Waiting for their call to say that it is ready, I went back 4 hours later to be told that they could not do it as there are Gearbox and A/C coolers taking up the space where they would fit their cooler. That is why I gave them the Spec and asked them if it would fit. A wasted trip costing over £400.
The car was serviced by Techspeed so I sourced a TF160 Kit and discussed fitting it with them. Their advice was to forget it. It does nothing to cool the oil and is a pain to bleed the coolant system without vacuum filling. A nice Marketing enhancemet.
The car is 14 years old and regularly has 150 OT when crossing Europe and in the Swiss Alps with Mobil 1 which has a max. operating Temp. of 220.
One TS Modification that I did fit is an engine bay fan over-ride switch operated by the HRW Switch and a changeover switch and relay mounted rear of the engine cover. This cooling is good for low speed/high power on mountain roads.
Geoff F.

[Rob Bell]

Oil cooler radiator can be placed behind the other coolant radiators and still be effective Geoff, so it should still be possible to install one of these - albeit not necessarily in the position that it was originally intended...

But you're right: modern oils are more durable than of old, and if you change it regularly (once a year, 12,000miles), oil temperatures of 150C probably won't cause you major problems. Next time you have the engine covers off, it would probably be a good idea to have a careful look for any signs of wear - but these engines are pretty durable IMO.

[Geoff.F]

Oil cooler radiator can be placed behind the other coolant radiators and still be effective Geoff, so it should still be possible to install one of these - albeit not necessarily in the position that it was originally intended...

But you're right: modern oils are more durable than of old, and if you change it regularly (once a year, 12,000miles), oil temperatures of 150C probably won't cause you major problems. Next time you have the engine covers off, it would probably be a good idea to have a careful look for any signs of wear - but these engines are pretty durable IMO.

Any positioning of a cooler other than Standard would have required special brackets and pipes also there would be no room for 2 more pipes with the extra 4 already fitted. Whilst living in Switzerland, I did not have the workshop facilities that I have in the garage at home.
The high temp on our car cannot be due to wear as it has not changed from new and has only 57K todate.
The engine cover comes off evey 5 years.
Geoff F.

[Rob Bell]

Eduardo adapted the brackets that came with the kit - notice how he's mounted the oil rad behind the twin radiator fans (he too has airconditioning) - http://mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/DIY/oi ... /index.htm

High temp is not due to wear, but high temp and oil degradation can lead to wear. I'd have a look come the next oil change. I suspect that you'll find everything still looking pristine Geoff: were it not for the unfortunate problems with head gaskets, this engine would have had a very strong reputation for durability.

[philip giles]

HI ALL THANKS TO ALL WHO POSTED COMMENTS i HAVE PURCHASED A KIT FROM Matt Lewis raceing air cooled 13 row rad with adapter plate includes bracketry and nuts and bolts his site is on ebay as Matt Lewis web shop.cost £129.00 including delivery,I did trace the water cooled 160 type but second hand they wanted £150. where that mounts I don't think it would do the job, so chose the air cooled kit. I dont fancy running the pipes to the front I think the oil pump will strugle to maintain pressures plus you could experience oil getting to cold? this is a track day car in the main and my son keeps revs up at 7k thats where the heat rise comes from, constant high reves, got the main coolant sorted by filling the engine after the upgrades with Evans waterless coolant allso fitted to my ZT 190 that has been round Spa for 7 hours full bore without even getting pressure in system very happy with that find, upgrade. I am planning on mounting this rad in front of one of the engine bay side vents but I will retain BOTH fans I fitted a 2cd to manual switch so I can put both front rad fans 2 off plus 2 engine bay fans belt and bracers. hopping to look at this on Saturday so I will report back on how and where I end up fitting it.
Thanks again
Phil

[Rob Bell]

Looking forward to hearing your experiences with this Philip! As mentioned earlier in the thread, one of my co-competitors in the Luffield Speed Championship has used this set up and is very pleased with the results.

Is it thermostatically controlled?

Only one engine bay fan - that is located behind the offside engine bay intake. The offside is the best bet as it offers the closest and shortest pipe run between the oil filter take off and the oil radiator. I would have thought that there was sufficient space to mount the rad AND the fan (with some ingenuity) - so I hope that the fan delete is not necessary.

Lots of pictures of the installation please Phil!

[philip giles]

Hi Rob
I am not planning on installing a thermostate as long as I can keep oil circa 110 D C 100 would be better as the oil also contributes to the engine overal temperature it helps with the controll of heat sink and build up. I plan to remove the air collector box, to give me better access to the n/s duct as I dont use original air box filter, I have a cased hi volume cone air filter with ducted cold air from under the car and 52mm throtlebody. I work on 10psi oil pressure per 1k revs need to keep oil pressure up, colder oil helps the pump, the Mobil 1 10w x 60 top spec oil I use will compliment the package. I will take pic's and post them with the method and mounting, along with results after the next run on circuit circa March 16/17th going to start this saturday.
cheers
phil

[Rob Bell]

Fantastic Phil - sounds like a good plan!

[mgtfnut]

Gerry has plumbed one of these in his TF135 (up front in his case). Again with good results.

Personally I am opting for the TF160 sandwich oil cooler - but annoyingly I forgot to get all the other bits at the same time! D'oh!!! So now need to find the coolant pipes, oil pips, mounting plate and oil filter adapter sandwich plate. But if you are using your F on track, it will prove a good investment.

Err no Rob , the coolant thermostat is still up front, I've stored the R25 laminova unit away, and fitted a TF intercooler. They are made by KTM, Austrian bike fame, and not particularly effective. They work fine for fast road work, but not much use on track.

[Rob Bell]

I thought you'd plumbed this in with the thermostat modification - or was that a plan we discussed at the time Gerry? Brain cells obviously ossifying!

[philip giles]

Hi all an update on fillting the mocal oil cooler removed the air collector box from n/s wheel arch with an angle grinder, box came out in bits, mocked up the fitting and by useing the old air fillter box with mods, I can duct air from n/s side vent through the oil cooler and conect the air filter to the inside of the cooler useing the engines own suck to pull cold air through and into engine, working out doors so finall fitting will take a while due to weather lots of picys and full description will follow, when don in Jan. Has any one got a set of 4 track day tyres they want rid of, I am in the market. Have a smashing xmas and new year guys, remember old MG's never die they just go faster, happy motoring.
Phil Giles
ZT 190 rules (only when F off the road)

[Rob Bell]

There is much to like about what you're suggesting - except might this not increase the inlet air charge temperature and impact on engine power? Also, I'd worry about the resistance to air flow - but without any measurements, I don't know how much of a problem this might be?

Looking forward to the next update! I confess all my projects are on hold now until the new year - too many other things going on right now!

PS Continuing the ZT tangent, I'm really looking forward to getting our MG ZTT CDTi back... it's just had a 160 remap