changing oil rail without breaking hg seal

[Geoff.F]

Hence my advice (as a professional engine builder) not to re-use.

The only reason for them to not be reuseable is if they have been GROSSLY overtorqued such that they have reached there Yield Point and lost their elasticity and clamping load. This can be measured with a 6in rule.
Geoff F.

[Paul Storey]

Many thanks Debs & Rob.
I understand what you're saying, and "yes" I'm beginning to have that sinking feeling about my recently acquired '96 VVC. There's absolutely no doubt the gasket was changed about 4,000 miles ago and I must assume a reputable company with an experienced ex-MG mechanic would know the important parameters. The car runs beautifully . . . it's like sitting in front of a well-oiled sewing machine and my god does it go when you put your foot down. I'm hooked on it already and with only 36,000 on the clock with no corrosion I'm prepared to do whatever's necessary because the car's worth it.
I'm semi-competent if it comes to another gasket change . . it wouldn't frighten me to do it myself . . . being retired I've all the time in the world and enjoy fixing things. But I've a couple of questions please before I pass judgement on the recently fitted MLS gasket & rail :-
(I) I'm think I'm losing coolant, although only a smidgeon. I've made-up a coolant 'dipstick' taking the plastic 'foot' in the expansion tank as zero on my dipstick & marking 1 mm increments from there downwards. If I take the car on a shortish run (20 miles +\-) the coolant will be down 1 mm or so the following day when it's returned to ambient temperature. But the funny thing is, if I take the car on a longer run (50 ~ 70 miles) it's still only lost 1 mm or so the following day. That seems weird to me because surely if coolant was going into the engine it would go at a constant rate ? Surely, the further I drive the more the coolant would be depleted . . . but that doesn't seem to be happening. The loss is the same no matter the distance/time. The engine oil is spotlessly clean (no signs of water emulsion on the dipstick) and there's no oil in the coolant tank. Any thoughts please ? Am I paranoid ? Is a 1mm loss normal? (but I don't see how it can be on a closed system . . . it's got to be going somewhere)
(2) regarding the suitability of the MLS gasket in relation to liner height :- maybe a stupid question but if this gasket is located by steel dowels (which I've read it is) why would it matter what the liner height was because it could only be located correctly, and stay there . . . . if it's properly located with the dowels and fully torqued down it will surely sit perfectly above the cylinder bores and wouldn't need any "sticking-up" liner to locate against or to hold it in position? I guess there's more to it than that ?

[Debs]

The only reason for them to not be reuseable is if they have been GROSSLY overtorqued such that they have reached there Yield Point and lost their elasticity and clamping load. This can be measured with a 6in rule.
Geoff F.

If that were the case then the limits stated by MGR wouldn't be so tight.

And no they can not be measure with a 6" rule.

It's exactly this sort of B/S spouted by 'Internet Herberts' that has resulted in the K Series getting such a bad reputation and for people being so scared of it.

[Tipper]

Oh dear, more old tat from Debs who to the best of my knowledge hasn't posted for several years on this forum. I wonder what made you start now... boredom?

[Debs]

CLANG!

You know what that was?

That was the sound of the lid of my ignore bin slamming shut.

[Plezier]

I believe that the liner being raised up above the face of the block is to allow the MLS to crush to seal. The Polymer type gasket seals is a slightly different way which is why unless perfect the MLS gasket can still leak coolant as it's not sealing the coolant and oil galleries correctly. The MLS is not the be all and end all many seem to think.

Now as to your small coolant loss may I suggest you carefull inspect teh coolant expansion tank as these can develop cracks over time and this sounds like you may have that issue. I need a new tank for my 97 VVC "Elsie" as she loses a bit of coolant and I believe it's the rough threads and cap sealign face which is the cause.

[Plezier]

CLANG!

You know what that was?

That was the sound of the lid of my ignore bin slamming shut.

Hmmm I see your handy at throwing out statements and ridiculing others yet when asked to explain or show that your way or how your way is better there is no response, no answer, not even when asked via PM. You made belittling remarks about the way I routed and secured the braided hoses on my project yet have not offered any useful advice as to a better way despite beign asked in the thread and via a PM . You seem fond of blowing your own trumpet about how good you are yet you offer no help at all really.

I think the term "Troll" comes to mind ................................... unless of course you prove me wrong!











You will excuse me if I DON'T hold my breathe though whilst awaiting a reply

[webba]

Paul I would check your water pump. I have bought 3 MGF's with HFG and when I have got them home and checked them over in each case it was a leaking water pump ,2 out of the 3 cars had recently had the HG replaced so maybe there is link between HGF and leaking water pump

[Rob Bell]

(I) I'm think I'm losing coolant, although only a smidgeon. I've made-up a coolant 'dipstick' taking the plastic 'foot' in the expansion tank as zero on my dipstick & marking 1 mm increments from there downwards. If I take the car on a shortish run (20 miles +\-) the coolant will be down 1 mm or so the following day when it's returned to ambient temperature. But the funny thing is, if I take the car on a longer run (50 ~ 70 miles) it's still only lost 1 mm or so the following day. That seems weird to me because surely if coolant was going into the engine it would go at a constant rate ? Surely, the further I drive the more the coolant would be depleted . . . but that doesn't seem to be happening. The loss is the same no matter the distance/time. The engine oil is spotlessly clean (no signs of water emulsion on the dipstick) and there's no oil in the coolant tank. Any thoughts please ? Am I paranoid ? Is a 1mm loss normal? (but I don't see how it can be on a closed system . . . it's got to be going somewhere)

There is often some fluctuation in the level of the coolant in the expansion tank. It can be more exaggerated, particularly if there is trapped air somewhere (air expands more than fluid when hot). But if the mean coolant height remains unchanged, then there isn't a problem.

However, if the coolant drops by a millimetre everytime the car is driven, and this leads to a slow but progressive loss of coolant, then yes, I'd agree that there is a problem. Luckily, just because the coolant level is failing doesn't mean that the head gasket is failing - there can be many other explanations for this.

Your car may have its original radiator - in which case there is a good chance it has rotten. MGF radiators rot for fun. Fortunately TF radiators (alloy) are a direct swap and last far better.

Next consider the condition of the under body water pipes. These typically have a service life of around 7 years before rot kills them off. Stainless or alloy after market alternatives exist if you are planning to keep the car long term

Rubber coolant hoses can split with age, so check these.

Then, another good area for trouble is as Adi says, the water pump.

Finally - and actually one of the first things to check, is the coolant expansion tank cap. It's pressurised, but they don't live forever - and when they start to go, will allow evaporative fluid loss... and it is a cheap and simple replacement!

Plenty of things to check

(2) regarding the suitability of the MLS gasket in relation to liner height :- maybe a stupid question but if this gasket is located by steel dowels (which I've read it is) why would it matter what the liner height was because it could only be located correctly, and stay there . . . . if it's properly located with the dowels and fully torqued down it will surely sit perfectly above the cylinder bores and wouldn't need any "sticking-up" liner to locate against or to hold it in position? I guess there's more to it than that ?

Yes, a bit more: the problem lies with the fire rings - a circular metal insert around each of the combustion chambers. For the MLS, it is a slightly thicker gasket than the original, and as a result the fire rings may not be well clamped unless the liners are slightly proud of the block face. As you say, it isn't a location problem per se, but a problem of clamping forces at the point at which the gasket is at its greatest stress.

Hope this helps

[Plezier]

Ahhh yes silly me I forgot the water pump issue and yes this did cost the HGF in the Blue MPi as the seller did not say it was leaking and he was toppin up the coolant. My 500 odd miles running about then home plus the blat Monday mornign to check for misfires the HG failed whilst on the drive whilst I was washing it after a jet wash down .

[Debs]

Hmmm I see your handy at throwing out statements and ridiculing others yet when asked to explain or show that your way or how your way is better there is no response, no answer, not even when asked via PM.

I'll answer you when you deign to be polite.

You made belittling remarks about the way I routed and secured the braided hoses on my project yet have not offered any useful advice as to a better way despite beign asked in the thread and via a PM

If you think criticising is 'belittling' I fear you have a serious inferiority complex. The reason I have not answered your Q either on the thread in question or your PM is because :

1. I haven't had time.
2. Your insulting and demanding nature gives me no incentive.

.

I think the term "Troll" comes to mind ................................... unless of course you prove me wrong!

Calling people 'Trolls' is not really conducive to gaining their help now is it? See above comment.

You will excuse me if I DON'T hold my breathe though whilst awaiting a reply

That comment is merely puerile. Doubly so given you felt the need to emphasise it by writing it in colour.

I suggest you grow up.

[fatbaldingoldgit]

Regardless of the issues you have with Plezier I am sure there are many on this forum that would welcome your view on how braided hoses should be routed.

There should be room for disagreement on the forum.

and No I am not taking sides.

[Debs]

There is often some fluctuation in the level of the coolant in the expansion tank. It can be more exaggerated, particularly if there is trapped air somewhere (air expands more than fluid when hot). But if the mean coolant height remains unchanged, then there isn't a problem.

I agree.

However, if the coolant drops by a millimetre everytime the car is driven, and this leads to a slow but progressive loss of coolant, then yes, I'd agree that there is a problem. Luckily, just because the coolant level is failing doesn't mean that the head gasket is failing - there can be many other explanations for this.

Loss of coolant on an F/TF always has people reacting with the idea that it must be HGF. While coolant loss may well be indictive, or indeed may lead to HGF it is not necessarily the case. The F/TF have very long water runs so have a number of additional points where coolant can be lost compared to, say, a ZR.

Your car may have its original radiator - in which case there is a good chance it has rotten. MGF radiators rot for fun. Fortunately TF radiators (alloy) are a direct swap and last far better.

Next consider the condition of the under body water pipes. These typically have a service life of around 7 years before rot kills them off. Stainless or alloy after market alternatives exist if you are planning to keep the car long term

Rubber coolant hoses can split with age, so check these.

Exactly. It is also worth considering hat sort of coolant you are using. TFs used OAT (pink) coolant whereas Fs used the earlier Glycol type (green/blue). At the concentration required to protect the engine from electrolytic action (steel liners in an alloy block remember) the glycol is extremely agressive wrt to attacking the rubber hoses.

I run a Ginetta G15 race car which is similar in configuration to an F/TF (front rad, rear engine). For many years running on the old 'Bluecol' coolant (at 50% bv) I would have to prophylactically change the flexible hoses at the end of every race season! Upon changing to OAT this problem disappeared. (Note: To change fom 'Blue/Green' coolant to OAT requires a full and complete coolant flush. Mixing the 2 colant types will rapidly result in a colloidal 'sludge' (akin to thick wallpaper paste) that will raopidly block the coolant galleries. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! Replacement of the rubber hoses with the silicone 'Samco' type is also beneficial in this respect. It might be worth pointing out that all the race cars I build now run OAT and silicone hoses and have never suffered coolant loss in 'normal' operation.

Then, another good area for trouble is as Adi says, the water pump.

These are well known to suffer failure of the gland seal, especially on earlier cars where the early automatic cam belt tensioner is fitted, or where cheap 'pattern parts' are used. It is good practice to change the water pump at every cam belt change and whenever doing a HG change, and use an OEM MGR part.

Finally - and actually one of the first things to check, is the coolant expansion tank cap. It's pressurised, but they don't live forever - and when they start to go, will allow evaporative fluid loss... and it is a cheap and simple replacement!

I will bet you a pound to a pinch of salt that this is where your problem lies. These caps are the bane of the K Series coolant system and even brand new ones have been known to fail surprisingly early.

I suggest you get a new one and carry a spare.

I would additionally suggest you fit a low coolant alarm such as the Brown and Gammons type or even the 'Lo-Larm'.

(2) regarding the suitability of the MLS gasket in relation to liner height :- maybe a stupid question but if this gasket is located by steel dowels (which I've read it is) why would it matter what the liner height was because it could only be located correctly, and stay there . . . . if it's properly located with the dowels and fully torqued down it will surely sit perfectly above the cylinder bores and wouldn't need any "sticking-up" liner to locate against or to hold it in position? I guess there's more to it than that ?

Yes, a bit more: the problem lies with the fire rings - a circular metal insert around each of the combustion chambers. For the MLS, it is a slightly thicker gasket than the original, and as a result the fire rings may not be well clamped unless the liners are slightly proud of the block face. As you say, it isn't a location problem per se, but a problem of clamping forces at the point at which the gasket is at its greatest stress.

It is indeed to do with the way the fire ring is supported. The fire ring on the K series is of a particularly poor design, being effectively a wire loop encased within a thin metal 'envelope'. Poor support (or in the case of the early engines with the plastic dowels. head shuffle) can cause the fire ring to fail. Indeed most head gasket failures (where overheating has not caused the failure) are the result of fire ring failure.

The Chinese N-series MLS gasket is far better in this respect than is the Land Rover Freelander MLS gasket (which retained the fire ring design of the earlier elastomeric gasket).

[Rob Bell]

I haven't had an N-series to directly compare with the earlier Rover designed items - so interesting to hear that Debs.

I suspect that the N-series is designed with a liner stand-proud like the last of the K-series engines?

[Paul Storey]

Thanks again for the information everyone . . very informative . . lots of possibilities to explore and encouraging to know the smart money's on either the pressure cap or the water pump (And I've put a pinch of salt to one side in case the bet wins !)

Reference the expansion tank cap ~ if these fail in which 'direction' do they fail, i.e. failing to release pressure when they should or allowing pressure/coolant out when they shouldn't ? (And, as an aside, if the cap is the bane of the K series engine is that a design fault ? . . . which leads on to fitting expansion tanks/caps from other cars which have no history of problems ?)

[Rob Bell]

Allowing pressure out Paul

[RobboMC]

To take the thread off in a new direction:

I have purchased and fitted a totally rebuilt engine. So much rebuilt that it looks like even the block has been acid dipped.
It's a 1.81 120PS but that's irrelevant. My question is: can I tell what is inside without taking it all apart.

It allegedly has an MLS gasket - hence the connection to this thread. It came with a new water pump and new tensioner,
so someone must have known something about the K-series to do that. I fitted a new timing belt as it had been sitting on the pulley for a long time without rotating.

Now the engine fired up first kick and runs perfectly fine. But I have those nagging questions:

Does it have the correct liner protrusion?
Does it have an upgraded oil rail?
And without stirring Debs too much I wonder if it has had new head bolts fitted?

I could perhaps take the sump off and look at the oil rail, but I guess unless it blows a head gasket in the future I will never know about the rest.

[Paul Storey]

Nice to know I'm not the only one who's paranoid RobboMC . . we've a lot in common ! . . . . like you, my engine runs perfectly fine but it doesn't stop me laying awake at night thinking "what if this" or "what if that".
Does this forum have a "Paranoid Of The Year" award ? If so I think we're currently neck-and-neck !

[Rob Bell]

The answer is you don't and can't know. But we are not talking about absolutes here - and there is a very good chance all will be fine. My perception is that there have been cases of reported HGF with MLS gaskets where the liner heights have not been adequate, but that these gaskets are otherwise very reliable.

In the same way that I would never advocate the "prophylactic" head gasket change, I would not suggest lifting the head of your nicely rebuilt engine unless you absolutely have to.