Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

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Rob Bell
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Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Rob Bell » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:02 pm

I haven't seen much information on the two different types of seal used on MGF (and other earlier Rovers). As you all probably know, there are two types. The workshop manual refers to these as being "Type A" and "Type B":

Image

The above is an extract from the official MG Rover workshop manual. This information is very important, because you can't just fit a newer type seal into an older drive shaft, BUT you can fit an older type seal to a newer driveshaft. (Not confusing in the least eh?)

There are three problems here:
1. The workshop manual doesn't tell you the part number for the "Type A" or "Type B" seal
2. It doesn't tell you how you identify one from the other (the diagram of the seal is semi-useful here, but you'd rather you saw the actual seal wouldn't you?)
3. It doesn't tell you how to identify which gearbox you have and what seal you need to order.

To answer these questions directly:

1. Part numbers of the respective seal sets:


Type A seals are the earlier ones. UNG100060 and TRX000010 TRX100060 are the RH and LH part numbers respectively.

Type B seals are the later ones. TRX100100 and TRX100110 are the RH and LH part numbers needed here.

2. How to identify the seals on the gearbox:

Type A seals look like this - RH seal on the left of these images:
F3178992-8686-4C83-B0BC-EA2EFB1CD742.jpeg
52A3538C-170B-417C-86C6-1948EBF7F4EE.jpeg
LH seal (TRX100060):
IMG_5514.JPG
IMG_5515.JPG
On my gearbox, they looked like this, in situ (they are characterised by their metal facets)
6FC3A463-F926-4AC1-8EE1-4E559FD731E4.jpeg
Above is the RH seal in situ, with the drive shaft removed. The LH seal is very similar, but larger. I haven't shown a picture, because it had disintegrated...

Type B seals look like this:
66CEAB2E-675A-422F-B6ED-666B01968405.jpeg
68248553-7D94-4AD2-B042-AA8605CDC0BB.jpeg

3. How can you tell in advance whether your gearbox has type A or type B seals?


The rule of thumb here is that early cars will have type A and later ones type B. (* also see post below)

If your gearbox still has its identity sticker intact, then you can go by serial number. According to the EPC, the change over point is C4BP03759 & G4BP/C6BP09712

Not sure why G4BP is listed here, because to my knowledge, only C4BP and C6BP were ever fitted to MGF/TF... but that is a tangent.

HOWEVER - we are looking at cars that are now practically a quarter of a century old, so to be honest, who knows what driveshafts or which gearbox has been fitted to your MG in the past? One answer here is to remove your drive shafts, look at the seals that are fitted and order/fit the ones that are the direct replacement to the one you've just about to replace.

PS on the original seals, there is the part number embossed on the rubber, so if in doubt, check that out...

Now read on to next post!

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Rob Bell » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:10 pm

I needed to do some checking, as one of my replacement ABS drive shafts is clearly labelled as coming from a TF. The other is of unknown vintage.

At first glance, both old and new drive shafts look the same - foreground an early driveshaft, behind that is the later TF version:
78B6BFC7-F96C-4949-A8AF-E5FFF5C70D89.jpeg
However, they are not the same. The workshop manual helpfully reveals the key difference between the two:
5C10828F-5576-4BC8-B0B3-D12E6DCFA674.jpeg
Note the groove machined in the later driveshaft end (A). See this groove, you can use the later Type B seal. No groove, you have to use the older Type A seal!

Here’s why: the later shaft has a larger diameter and deeper scalloped machined end to take the later type oil seal:
8155A20F-49E2-420E-A074-902717AE9B04.jpeg
The later oil seal lip fits into this.

Use the later seal on an early drive shaft, the drive shaft won’t face up to the seal properly, the seal will prevent the splined end of the shaft inserting into the gearbox fully, and hence won’t locate into the differential securely:
67E2D42C-F966-4B3E-93B1-B28C993A455A.jpeg
See how later drive shaft fits up to later seal really neatly:
F53B291A-4D8D-46FD-B0C0-FCEDDED6BE52.jpeg
So the drive shaft dictates seal. Outer perimeter groove, can fit either Type A or B seal, but if no outer perimeter groove you HAVE to use the Type A seal.

Conclusion:
  • An early gearbox needs to be fitted with early-type differential seals.
  • Early type drive shafts need to be fitted with early-type differential seals.
  • Later gearboxes or a later driveshafts can be used with either new or old type seals.

    Therefore, identify the seals used in your gearbox.
  • If an older gearbox with Type A seals, replace these seals with Type A seals. It does not matter which driveshafts are on the car.
  • If the gearbox has the later type B seals, but you need to fit early type drive shafts, change the seals and fit Type A seals.
    NEVER use type B seals with early driveshafts.
Hopefully that helps to clarify the driveshaft seal conundrum :)

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by mowog73 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:04 pm

Good information, thanks.
Mark

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Rob Bell » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:47 pm

Thanks Mark - it's taken me a morning to get my head around this! Will be putting my conclusions into practice shortly :)

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:01 pm

I'm glad I posted this - I have just ordered the "universal" type A seals for Project Shed - late model PG1 gearbox (ZR160 G4 converted to G4BP spec) with original ABS spec early MGF driveshafts! :D

Previous seal replacement on N7, using type A seals and late drive shafts to an early MGF gearbox was successful :)

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by markvrs » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:13 pm

Hi,

Just to update this excellent post, I believe that the part numbers are the wrong way round,

Late seals are TRX100060 and UNG100060

Early seals are TRX100100 and TRX100110

eg

https://www.ukmgparts.com/product/mgf-m ... -trx100060

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Kasper » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:55 pm

Oeh, thank for the posting Rob! We just changed the seals on the longer drive shaft side of my ‘96 vvc F. As I managed to damage the rubber cover of that drive shaft doing 180-ish for over one hour (about 115mph) at the German motorway :) :) :) We used an upgraded type of seal to be sure it will last for the next 26 years at least.
MGFvvc - 90FVBG - charcoal - you might think it is original - (1996 nr:8204)
MGTF 120 - 57RNJ7 - BRG - every day is an MG day - (2005)
MGC CGT - SJ08DY - tartan red - 1985 restauration fairly original - (1968 nr: 4137)


http://www.MGF.be

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Rob Bell » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:38 am

markvrs wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:13 pm
Hi,

Just to update this excellent post, I believe that the part numbers are the wrong way round,

Late seals are TRX100060 and UNG100060

Early seals are TRX100100 and TRX100110

eg

https://www.ukmgparts.com/product/mgf-m ... -trx100060
You've got me worried now! But pretty sure I had these right - but if anyone can confirm one way or the other (parts lists can be inaccurate), that'd be great! :)

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Rob Bell » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:39 am

Kasper wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:55 pm
Oeh, thank for the posting Rob! We just changed the seals on the longer drive shaft side of my ‘96 vvc F. As I managed to damage the rubber cover of that drive shaft doing 180-ish for over one hour (about 115mph) at the German motorway :) :) :) We used an upgraded type of seal to be sure it will last for the next 26 years at least.
No worries Kasper - glad it is of use! :D

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by markvrs » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:04 pm

From DMGRS

Early PG1 Gearbox Differential Seal - LH - TRX100110 / TRX100110SLP

This is the 'all rubber' seal used on all early MG Rover PG1 gearboxes - usually up to around 1996 however some later cars (mainly conversions etc) also use these.
The driveshafts that fit into these seals have a less pronounced 'recess' for the seal to fit into.

This is the left hand (UK driver's side) seal - we also have the right hand seal listed under TRX100100 / TRX100100SLP.

The later 'metal type' seals are also in stock - part number UNG100060 and TRX100060.

From Brown and Gammon MG
Screenshot 2022-08-25 at 14.03.02.png

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Re: Gearbox differential oil seals (PG1)

Post by Kasper » Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:10 pm

Rob Bell wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:39 am
Kasper wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:55 pm
Oeh, thank for the posting Rob! We just changed the seals on the longer drive shaft side of my ‘96 vvc F. As I managed to damage the rubber cover of that drive shaft doing 180-ish for over one hour (about 115mph) at the German motorway :) :) :) We used an upgraded type of seal to be sure it will last for the next 26 years at least.
No worries Kasper - glad it is of use! :D
Thx Rob, Pretty shure we did the right thing.
MGFvvc - 90FVBG - charcoal - you might think it is original - (1996 nr:8204)
MGTF 120 - 57RNJ7 - BRG - every day is an MG day - (2005)
MGC CGT - SJ08DY - tartan red - 1985 restauration fairly original - (1968 nr: 4137)


http://www.MGF.be

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