Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

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Rob Bell
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Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:50 am

[Previous thread title: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???]


Hi Guys,

I was racing at Goodwood on Saturday. Lovely day - beautiful weather, great company etc. On my first timed run, had a fantastic run - I am sure I was on course to smash my previous best time there, but at the end of Lavant straight into Woodcote, I slammed the gears from 5th down a cog, was baulked and then there was no drive what so ever. Arrrgh!

I had enough momentum to freewheel through the chicane, through the finish line and then off into the parc ferme. Engine was running fine, I could select gears (almost disappointingly, the selector cables were absolutely fine!) - but I could do so without the need for the clutch to be depressed - and obviously, there was no transmitted drive. There is an odd, engine-speed related "chuffing" noise - the most similar noise would be an exhaust manifold leak. This noise goes away almost completely on depressing the clutch, so the clutch release bearing is fine and working, and I suspect that the most likely explanation is that the clutch disc itself has shattered.

The other possibility is that the gearbox itself is now knackered - although the only way I can imagine that it could break to give this particular problem would be that the gearbox input shaft has sheared - which I think rather unlikely as the weakest part of the engine/gearbox interface will be the clutch.

I got the car home thanks to a nice man with a yellow van :) I now need to work out what to do next.

I have a replacement gearbox, clutch and lightweight fly wheel.

I suspect that I am too time poor at the moment to tackle this myself (it feels like it could be more than a weekend job - particularly with my dad's birthday this weekend - and I am booked to race again on the weekend after that! But if I were to attempt the clutch, can this be done in a day, on the road outside my house, without dropping the rear subframe?

Probably a rhetorical question, but do let me know your thoughts! :thumbsu:

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by willyphixitt » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:00 am

Sorry to hear of your breakdown, Rob, I hope you can get it sorted for your next race. Good luck.
Bill

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:18 am

Thanks Bill - will let you all know what is found - hopefully with photos! And yes, fingers crossed I can get this done in time!!!

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:42 pm

Car is booked into the local MG specialist for next week, as I doubt that I will have time to complete the job. This is going to cost a few pennies I think - the usual subframe drop job. Hopefully the subframe mount screws aren't totally rotten!

Shame: I was planning to do this job when there was more time to do it! Still, the silver lining is that I'll be trying out the G4BP gearbox, Black Diamond clutch and lightened flywheel a little sooner than planned! :lol:

I have ordered up type-A drive shaft seals for the gearbox, which should sort out any incompatibility issues between the later gearbox and the early drive shafts...

To cheer myself up a little, I have calculated the peak theoretical road speed at 6,750rpm with the G4 gearbox compared to the C6BP currently fitted (the standard item). My converted G4BP first:
1st = 35.5mph
2nd = 60.9mph
3rd = 88.1mph
4th = 111.6mph
5th = 136mph.

The C6BP would give the following max speeds at the same rpm:
1st = 38.8mph
2nd = 66.7mph
3rd = 94.0mph
4th = 119.0mph
5th = 161mph.

The G4 will give more off-the-line acceleration but a more frantic gear change! But the gears are more tightly stacked, with gear changes at every 25mph(ish), whereas the C6 is slightly broader spaced, and with an overdrive 5th that is geared to 42mph faster than 4th. For most tracks and particularly for Hill climbs and sprints, this should be better suited. But for the drive there and back, I am going to miss the absence of an over-drive top gear. Shame MG Rover never built a 6-speed PG1. Quaife do one, but that is mega money... :-O

Should be interesting! The G4BP will probably better suited to the engine I am building, but it will be an interesting baseline to get now with the current 140-ish bhp MPi engine currently fitted.

Oh, and it has a Torsen-A differential with steel-caged up-rated internal bearings... ;) [More a G4BPT specification, if you are a PG1 gearbox nerd :lol:]

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by Rob Bell » Fri May 06, 2022 3:12 pm

All done. You really don't want to know how much this cost me - London Labour rates! Argh! But the car is running once again and ready for a weekend of racing events. It certainly reminds me why I like to do all the work on my cars... but the truth is, I would have likely have taken all year to do this, grabbing an hour and there when I could grab some time... or possibly longer! I've paid big time for the convenience. :?

The problem was, as I thought, the clutch. A whole one side of the clutch plate was completely devoid of friction material - the other side was severely worn. I expected this - I have been thinking about clutch replacement for some while, but the clutch had not been slipping, so thought I might get one last season from it - obviously not!!! Lesson learnt.

The clutch hydraulics needed re-bleeding, but apart from that, I am happy. I haven't got a good feeling for how the gearing has changed the car yet - but it will happily dawdle along in 5th gear at 30mph now, so yes, the gearing is a lot lower than before. Will be "interesting" to see how it feels at motorway speeds (from my calculations, the engine will be running 500rpm faster at 70mph compared to the old gearbox).

Interestingly, the Black Diamond up-rated clutch feels quite a lot lighter than the old one. Or is it that the clutch release bearing is freer than the old one? The lighter flywheel makes it a little easier to stall the engine than before, but it's no big deal or inconvenience. Obviously, way too early to tell how the Torsen-A differential is impacting on the handling - but a weekend's worth of hill climbing and sprints should give some more idea!

Have I improved the car, or ruined it? Watch this space...

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by Barbour » Fri May 06, 2022 10:03 pm

Rob Bell wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 3:12 pm
Have I improved the car, or ruined it? Watch this space...
Oh, Damm you Cliff... hanger
Cheers!

Safety fast, S3XY, Born from jets...

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by Rob Bell » Mon May 09, 2022 11:58 am

LOL! :lol:

Update: "Journey to Ruin"

This weekend was, through a play of fate, a jam-packed one for racing, with Shelsley Walsh Hill Climb on Saturday and Rushmore Sprint on Sunday.

Things did not go entirely to plan...

The drive up to Shelsley on Saturday was pretty uneventful. It is around 120 miles from me, and nearly 90 of these are motorway, which gave me plenty of time to consider the now much lower 5th gear. I need a sixth gear now! But then, even with the standard gearbox, you need a sixth gear for long motorway drives - except that now, with the lower final drive ratio and the lower fifth gear ratio, 70mph is now at an indicated 3,600rpm. At least that engine speed is outside the usual exhaust resonance frequency. Slightly annoying, but tolerable. I haven't worked out the fuel economy, but the impact of the higher engine speed was not particularly ruinous or noticeable to be honest.

One side effect of the higher continuous engine speed is a higher oil temperature. Whereas under similar conditions, the same engine would register a temperature of around 90C and not budge, this transmission and higher engine speeds result in an engine temperature of whatever that intermediate marker between 60 and 120C on the oil temperature gauge actually signifies? 90C? I don't think that this is a too-big-a-deal. An oil cooler is planned for the next engine upgrade, so certainly manageable.

The Torsen diff makes no impact upon normal driving. What you would hope for and think to be honest.

The new (to me) gearbox felt good. Initially changes in first and second were pretty notchy, but soon eased up with use: this gearbox has sat for some years without oil waiting to go into the car, so no surprise there and no concerns now.

Apart from the excessively light clutch pedal, there were no concerns.

Shelsley Walsh, like all events starts with practice runs and then timed runs. We were scheduled, and got, two practice runs and then two timed runs.

At this point all seemed well. There is a tyre warm up area then the start line. I decided to go full "ASBO" on the tyre warming - lit up the rear tyres, and drove to the start line in first practice. The car got off the line fine, again with wheel spin - but then the clutch started to slip. BADLY. By the finish straight after the "Esses", the car could barely manage 25mph - just like a clutch failure.

Cutting a long story short, this persisted all through the day. Because the clutch pedal was so light, the perceived wisdom was that there could have been some dirt or air or what ever in the system, acting like a valve preventing the release of the clutch disengagement causing the clutch to slip. This led to much disassembly between runs and even had me taking the slave cylinder apart and shortening the return spring to give more-than-usual clutch movement. After much bleeding, the mother load of black gunge and seemingly some water, came out of the hydraulic line the upshot of this was a clutch pedal weight that finally felt normal! But this did not help stop the clutch from slipping.

Total failure to record any times whatsoever (or at least no meaningful times) - so the benefit of the close ratio gearbox and Torsen diff could not be realised. The engine spins up super quickly on the starter motor and revs really quickly and nicely with the lightweight flywheel though!

I was able to drive the Shed home without problem that evening - gentle driving through the back roads, motorway and then through north London traffic. No clutch slip at all.

With Rushmore the next day, I was wondering what best to do. Three options I considered were (1) to bale out and not do the event and sit around sulking, (2) to go with my other MGF and simply have some fun or (3) risk it with Project Shed. I went for option (3), primarily because the start line at Rushmore is downhill and the rest of it is on the flat - so much easier on the clutch than Shelsley would be.

This proved to be the right decision: starting gently, and getting more aggressive on the clutch throughout the day, I had no further clutch slip! In a mixed class of modified vehicles, I won second in class behind a very well prepared Ford Escort that I recon probably over 60 (probably 100) bhp advantage on me, with a car that probably weighs under 800kg. So I am not worried he was 6 seconds faster.

So what could the clutch problem be? I did some research on line before Rushmore and discovered that these clutches need to be bedded in - 200 miles was what was suggested on one Saab forum. So I wondered whether I had glazed my clutch by over exuberance on the Saturday?

This morning, I was on the phone to the clutch supplier, Black Diamond. I explained the problem but did not voice my suspicion, and they told me that the stage 2 clutch, by dint of its construction material, needs 600 miles of bedding in before working as it should. Apparently this is clearly stated in the installation instructions - instructions that were not passed on to me. I wonder whether the mechanic even read the instructions? He was a man after all... :lol: So yes, Simon from Black Diamond thinks that the clutch was likely glazed on Saturday.

Simon suggested three options going first. Worst case, I could return the clutch to them and they could re-surface this for me. Second, I could remove the clutch and get some emery paper and remove any glaze and ensure that the bearing surfaces are all showing even witness marks. Third would be to bed in the clutch with frequent gear changes and hopefully the clutch will just work.

Given that the clutch now seems to be working okay, I'll go with option 3 for now and see how we go, but if problems persist, I'll need to get the clutch out of the car to restore it.

Fingers crossed that I'll get away with the unintended (intended) abuse!

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Re: Lost all gears at Goodwood - blown clutch plate or sheared input shaft???

Post by Rob Bell » Mon May 09, 2022 12:00 pm

Oh, and an update on the gearbox/ Torsen. The ratios are well suited to sprints and hillclimbs - so I think worth the inconvenience of the lost "overdrive" top gear. The Torsen diff seems to really pull you through corners and potentially out of slides too - making the latter more controllable. More on that later - I think I'll need some track day activities to really learn how this transmission really impacts the handling of the car, but it seems very positive so far :D

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by Rob Bell » Tue May 10, 2022 10:31 am

Just changed the thread title - I'll continue with updates on my experience with the new transmission arrangements here, and the new thread title reflects this better! :thumbsu:

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by Rob Bell » Mon May 16, 2022 4:12 pm

Wiscombe Hill climb on Saturday. Glorious weather. This hill climb, more than any other, benefits cars with a limited slip differential. I have to say, this G4 box with the Torsen-A is absolutely phenomenal: where previously the unloaded inside rear would light up at Saw Bench and Martini, now there is simply outstanding traction and the car just squirted out of the corner.

Very very happy :D :thumbsu:

PS the clutch behaved this time - now done around 600 miles on the clutch, so hopefully now bedded in and fingers crossed, no more clutch slippage!

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by EllsoJo » Mon May 16, 2022 5:09 pm

And no more "full "ASBO" on the tyre warming" (until the clutch is fully "run-in" at least?)

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by Rob Bell » Tue May 17, 2022 5:16 pm

Exactly! I've been giving the clutch a little more TLC at the moment - and hopefully the clutch will bed in properly now :)

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by RobboMC » Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:31 am

HI Rob,

I have the C4 differential gears in my car after slotting in the internals from a TF box during the rebuild. I find it fantastic on the 'open road' as the engine revs sit right in the power band at 65 mph, so the car just wants to jump away and run in 5th without changing gear.

Of course on the track it's the only way to go, most club tracks here don't even get into 5th gear, or if into 5th only for a short run.
There's the long conrod straight at Bathurst of course but that's not a club track.

On the freeway it's a bit busy at 65 mph and I often find myself cruising at 60 mph on a really long trip, but it's more fun to just put the Welli in and drive at 85mph :):):)

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by markvrs » Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:30 am

Just another view of the PG1 gearbox with low ratio gears and Torsen diff. The most fun FWD car I have driven is my Rover 200 BRM with that gearbox mated to the VVC engine. The way it pulls its way through tight corners always makes me grin :D .

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by Rob Bell » Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:49 pm

Yes - although I think the BRM uses the more coveted B4 gearset and the later Torsen-B :D

Since writing the above, I discovered that one of the mechanics there had failed to fully tighten all the nuts and bolts on the suspension. The reason I went looking was for a knock from the rear suspension. The OSR ARB link was disconnected from the ARB and the nut and bolt was completely missing! I've since been through all the suspension bolts with the torque wrench. One side was over-torqued, the other was under torqued 8-O

Anyway, the reason for mentioning this was that I hadn't really noticed the absence of the rear ARB - and the lack of the rear ARB may also have assisted with rear axle grip from hairpin bends with adverse cambers... this may be an interesting finding to explore in more detail!!!

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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by talkingcars » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:28 pm

Back in the day when my mate was running the infamous "mental maestro" of top gear fame he found the car was better on track without a rear ARB. And was better with the 18mm ARB than the 22 ARB.
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Re: Light weight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio gearbox and Torsen-A differential upgrades (fun & games!)

Post by Rob Bell » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:47 am

Interesting, isn't it? I spoke to Andy Kitson, and again the answer was very interesting: there would be circumstances where the handling of the car would be better without the rear ABS, but the car, under certain circumstances - particularly transients on turning from side to side and the feel of the car's stability.

The way to really say what works best for me will likely take some track testing... which might be a fun day out to Curburough for example... but deleting the rear ARB will save a couple more kilos - and all from the rear of the car, which is good, since most of the weight saving on an F is usually from the front of the car! :)

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