MG TF 1st and Reverse gear selection

[Mads]

Hi everyone.

I have a 2003 model MG TF 135. It starts and drives brilliantly - with one exception. Unless the car is rolling (even very slightly), it's difficult to get into first and reverse gear. Once rolling it's perfectly fine.

The car has a Mike Sutor bell crank kit fitted, so gear selection is good (perfect once the car is rolling in fact). Could anyone suggest what might be wrong or need to be adjusted? Is this just "normal" and to be expected for an old MG TF gearbox (which has done 63,000 miles)?

Many thanks in advance.

Mads

[EllsoJo]

If you had said First and Second gears, I would have suggested shortening the cross-gate linkage by screwing-in the Rose joint by 1 turn. My logic would be that perhaps the cross-gate does not pull quite far enough to "make" the right gate in the gearbox, and movement of the car "jiggles" it into alignment.

However, 1st and reverse are at opposite extremes of the cross-gate linkage, so the above cannot be the problem. Similarly, as the gears you report as problematic are at opposite "corners" of the shift pattern, the fore-and aft cable length must be O.K.

I have encountered problems with selecting reverse, and I have assumed that the actual gears are not quite aligned: Reverse has no synchromesh, so to properly/reliably select reverse, I always engage the clutch in neutral (with engine running of course), then gently pull the gear-lever into reverse, which makes the selection easy. I suspect that 1st gear DOES (as-built at least) have synchro, so SHOULD be easier. However, you mention it has done 63,000 miles, which should be no problem for what is generally considered to be a reliable box, BUT, if a previous owner abused the poor thing by forcing it into 1st when still travelling at (say) 20mph or more, or forced it into 1st from stationary without full disengagement of the clutch, that synchro ring may well be shot.

I suggest you try the double de-clutch (spin up the gearbox in neutral, just tickover revs) before selecting 1st or reverse and see if that helps. The fact that the problem goes away once the car is moving supports this theory, as vehicle moving = gearbox turning.

[RobboMC]

Since this is 1st and reverse which are the gears normally selected at a standstill I'd guess that the clutch may not be quite fully disengaging.
I would check this by parking on a slight uphill, engage 1st gear with the clutch disengaged, and see if the car rolls backwards.

Test again in the other direction with reverse.

This should show whether the clutch adjustment isn't exactly right

[EllsoJo]

Since this is 1st and reverse which are the gears normally selected at a standstill I'd guess that the clutch may not be quite fully disengaging.
I would check this by parking on a slight uphill, engage 1st gear with the clutch disengaged, and see if the car rolls backwards.

Test again in the other direction with reverse.

This should show whether the clutch adjustment isn't exactly right

RobboMc makes a good point. Have you tried the ease of other gears when stationary? If (for instance) 3rd-4th selection with engine not running is easy, but more difficult with engine running (and clutch pedal to the floor), then clutch dragging is the answer. If so, try bleeding the clutch at the slave cylinder, checking for fluid leaks at the same time. If the slave and master cylinders are O.K. and the system bleeds O.K. then it's off with the gearbox and a thorough investigation.

[Rob Bell]

One quick question - was first and reverse selection good before swapping to the Mike Satur kit? Or was this fitted before your ownership of the car Mads?

[Mads]

Hello @EllsJo, @RoboMC and @RobBell.

Firstly, thank you all for replying and apologies for not replying sooner as we were away. I'll try to answer the questions/suggestions in order:-

1. Double de-clutching (at standstill) makes no difference - 1st and reverse are just as difficult to get into standing still with the engine running. Going into 2nd before shifting into 1st gear then setting off does seem to help. I'm not sure if that is a useful clue though?

2. The car rolls backward on a slope if in first gear with the clutch pedal down. The opposite is true for reverse - proving that the clutch isn't dragging. The biting point seems to be about 2-3 inches from the top of the travel, as I would expect.

3). Apart from 1st and reverse, it's easy to get into all of the other gears whilst stationary with the engine running.

3. I bought and fitted the Mike Satur bell crank kit myself. It was virtually impossible to get the car into any gear when it turned up on the back of a lorry from its previous owner (it was like stirring porridge as other people have written). It's made a huge improvement other than this first/reverse issue (which seems to be getting worse as I even struggled to get it into 2nd gear from 1st whilst accelerating yesterday). Eek!


The car was hardly used by the previous owner for the last few years - that may or may not have anything to do with it. I've no idea how he drove it towards the end?!? I'm almost waiting for something to go bang at this point so that the cause is clear - hopefully not whilst driving on a motorway and hopefully it's not deep in the gearbox.....

I could try refreshing the clutch fluid, though, since it's not dragging I doubt that will make any difference?

Thanks again everyone. Please keep those suggestions coming!

Mads

[Rob Bell]

I don't think changing the clutch fluid will make any difference (but it will need changing, as it is usually ignored during routine servicing).

My thoughts are:
1. the adjustment of the cables needs a little bit of tweaking to ensure that the gears engage cleanly and easily
2. there may be a fault in the gearbox - although the involvement of both first and reverse makes this a little less likely IMO. There is certainly no harm in changing the gearbox oil (which may never have been changed) and ensure that it is up to the level (PG1 is remarkably tolerant of abuse, and many gearboxes have been run with next to no lubricant!!!)

[EllsoJo]

Hello @EllsJo, @RoboMC and @RobBell.

Firstly, thank you all for replying and apologies for not replying sooner as we were away. I'll try to answer the questions/suggestions in order:-

1. Double de-clutching (at standstill) makes no difference - 1st and reverse are just as difficult to get into standing still with the engine running. Going into 2nd before shifting into 1st gear then setting off does seem to help. I'm not sure if that is a useful clue though?

2. The car rolls backward on a slope if in first gear with the clutch pedal down. The opposite is true for reverse - proving that the clutch isn't dragging. The biting point seems to be about 2-3 inches from the top of the travel, as I would expect.

3). Apart from 1st and reverse, it's easy to get into all of the other gears whilst stationary with the engine running.

3. I bought and fitted the Mike Satur bell crank kit myself. It was virtually impossible to get the car into any gear when it turned up on the back of a lorry from its previous owner (it was like stirring porridge as other people have written). It's made a huge improvement other than this first/reverse issue (which seems to be getting worse as I even struggled to get it into 2nd gear from 1st whilst accelerating yesterday). Eek!


The car was hardly used by the previous owner for the last few years - that may or may not have anything to do with it. I've no idea how he drove it towards the end?!? I'm almost waiting for something to go bang at this point so that the cause is clear - hopefully not whilst driving on a motorway and hopefully it's not deep in the gearbox.....

I could try refreshing the clutch fluid, though, since it's not dragging I doubt that will make any difference?

Thanks again everyone. Please keep those suggestions coming!

Mads

I am not sure that the fact that "The car rolls backward on a slope if in first gear with the clutch pedal down. The opposite is true for reverse" - DOES Prove that the clutch isn't dragging. It proves that the dragging is not enough to hold the weight of the car on that slope, but SOME dragging (enough to cause baulk rings to block 1st & Reverse gears engaging??) MAY be present. A warped clutch plate will give some slight drag, even when (largely) dis-engaged, but I hope for your sake this is NOT the problem.

Air in the clutch line might prevent full pressure & movement being transmitted to the slave cylinder, giving slight drag.
I would start by bleeding the clutch, which you will have to do if you change the clutch fluid, as others have suggested.


You also said "The biting point seems to be about 2-3 inches from the top of the travel, as I would expect." How close to the floor is the pedal at Bite point?

As for: "3). Apart from 1st and reverse, it's easy to get into all of the other gears whilst stationary with the engine running." : Higher gears than 1st or reverse would "see" less torque from the clutch, possibly allowing slight drag to have less baulking effect?? Not sure about this bit of theory, but something tells me I am right!!

The other possibility is that the Mike Satur Rose joints MIGHT be fouling on something(s) at the extreme ends of their travel? As someone else suggested, you should get someone to move the gearlever while you lie underneath and take pictures.

In my case, 1st places the standard (Rover-supplied) joint very close to a bolt-head:

If there are no obvious fouling points at this end of the cables, removing the gaiter at the gear-lever end may allow you to check for "Full and Free Movemnet (sounds like a pre-flight check!) at that end.

As ever, good luck

[Mads]

Hi @Ellsjo.

As ever, thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I will try replacing the clutch fluid and bleeding it this weekend to see if it makes any difference. I'll also measure the biting point from the clutch pedal to the floor before and after I do that.

When I first fitted the Mike Satur kit I did watch the linkage movement from under the car and there was no fowling. However, as you suggest, I will check again in case anything has changed in the meantime. The problem seems to be getting the gear selector into the 1st and/or reverse gear when moving from the centralised (i.e. neutral) position - once the mechanism has begun to move in the right direction for the gear, it seems to finish its travel with ease. That would suggest that any fowling is around the "neutral" point but wouldn't that affect all gears? I'm not sure I've explained that well enough though?

I'd like to think that I could feel a warped clutch plate as vibration through the pedals? As you say, hopefully, it's not that (or the gearbox itself).

Thanks also for the photo. I'll use that to compare to my car and may post it if the fluid change doesn't help.

Mads

[Mads]

Hi. Just to add that I did a full engine service when the car first turned up a few months ago and that included changing the gearbox oil. A good friend (also an MG TF owner) is helping me today, so I hope to give an update on our tests and findings later.

[talkingcars]

Hi and welcome to the forum

Difficulty to select first and reverse when stationary is a classic sign of clutch or release bearing. Try selecting first while rolling to see if it goes in more easily. In many vehicles it is quite possible to change gear without using the clutch when moving, I do it all the time when driving my Alfa or many of the lorries at work.

I was going to suggest gearbox fluid too but you got there first.

James

[Mads]

Hi everyone. A quick update on the car.... I purchased and fitted an MGMania slave cylinder bracket in an attempt to reduce the movement in that area. I suspect that because the biting point of my clutch was good (high), it would make no difference. Sure enough, it didn't! It's no worse, so no harm done.

Changing the oil from MG94 to standard 10W/40 was also suggested. Again, I tried that but it made no difference. Getting into first and reverse gear is still easy PROVIDED the car is rolling.

I suspect you are right, James and it is mechanical. I'll need to look in the clutch or release bearing though that sounds like a major job!

Thanks all

[Chris Tideswell]

If you haven’t already done so I would change the clutch fluid, quite some time ago I was having issues with selecting gear etc and got as far getting quotes to change the clutch. Someone suggested changing the fluid first as it is a relatively simple job and sure enough all the issues went away.

[Mads]

Hi Chris and thanks. Yes, changing the clutch fluid was one of the first jobs. Sadly it made no difference in this instance. I thought about replacing the seals or the whole slave cylinder, but the biting point is fine, there doesn't seem to be an issue disengaging the clutch.