I have a couple of questions before I go ahead with this. I've had a 1996 reg 1.8i since 1998, and after a coolant hose failure and a brief overheat i'm getting the head gasket replaced as a precaution. I've acquired an overhauled TF135 head complete with valves and camshafts which I hope will add a bit more oomph for track days. First query, does this make the car too lumpy at low rpms without upgrading the ECU or is it liveable with? I don't these days do many days pottering about! Also as it needs the adapter to drive the distributor to be fitted, how does one do that? I can't find any description of how it's done, just people saying it's not a problem.
Any advice gratefully received!
Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
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Not many rules really, this board being aimed at technical issues, it shouldn't fall foul (hopefully) of some of the more personal issues that can affect forums.
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Because advice is honestly and freely given in this technical section, much of it will be amateur experienced based, so any information is given in good faith and is not guaranteed as correct.
Not many rules really, this board being aimed at technical issues, it shouldn't fall foul (hopefully) of some of the more personal issues that can affect forums.
Rule 1 - Is that you need to think very carefully before posting anything technical or asking anything technical relating to the security system of the car - See 'Security Issues' sticky for more info.
Rule 2 - We (MGF Register) do not support copyright infringement and therefore references to CD ROM, PDF versions or paper copies of the workshop manual (for instance) should not be posted on the forum. We don't want to get into trouble and we'd rather sell you a genuine hard copy through our Regalia shop anyway!
Because advice is honestly and freely given in this technical section, much of it will be amateur experienced based, so any information is given in good faith and is not guaranteed as correct.
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michaelcngm
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RobboMC
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Re: Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
I'm sure other wise minds will add to this:
My (limited) understanding of the engine changes between the 120PS and 135PS is that it's not 'just' a camshaft change.
By using the 135 cams on a distributor driven engine you are not using the plug top coils. More importantly you are
not using the ECU from a 135 to run the injectors. I would also be concerned about running the engine lean without the 135 ECU pumping in the fuel with the correct mapping for those cams.
I purchased a rebuilt 135PS engine some years ago and ended up going 'backwards' by fitting the 120PS cams.
To get all the benefits of a 135 engine you might need to look at upgrading to a 135 ECU. There should be plenty around
at the wreckers. You should also get the engine wiring loom and matching alarm system if it's coming from a donor car. I am currently considering refitting my 135 cams and getting a donor ECU and alarm to reverse my previous efforts which; while getting the car running at the time; perhaps were not the path to a faster car.
From memory of things I've read here and there the 135 ECU might also be able to be remapped a bit for track day cars.
My (limited) understanding of the engine changes between the 120PS and 135PS is that it's not 'just' a camshaft change.
By using the 135 cams on a distributor driven engine you are not using the plug top coils. More importantly you are
not using the ECU from a 135 to run the injectors. I would also be concerned about running the engine lean without the 135 ECU pumping in the fuel with the correct mapping for those cams.
I purchased a rebuilt 135PS engine some years ago and ended up going 'backwards' by fitting the 120PS cams.
To get all the benefits of a 135 engine you might need to look at upgrading to a 135 ECU. There should be plenty around
at the wreckers. You should also get the engine wiring loom and matching alarm system if it's coming from a donor car. I am currently considering refitting my 135 cams and getting a donor ECU and alarm to reverse my previous efforts which; while getting the car running at the time; perhaps were not the path to a faster car.
From memory of things I've read here and there the 135 ECU might also be able to be remapped a bit for track day cars.
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Rob Bell
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Re: Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
I did exactly this swap over ... erm ... 15 years ago. No idea where the time has gone, but it has gone quickly!!!
The senario that lead to the swap was remarkably similar to yours Michael - the main coolant pipe from the cylinder head had developed a split and dumped the coolant, leading to the cylinder head over heating and going soft.
The TF135 head casting is largely identical to the earlier versions and the cams run fine with MEMS1.9.
It is not quite a plug and play swap though, as Rob says. The two main issues, assuming you keep the MEMS1.9 system (the engine runs just fine with these cams by the way - and I've done this with two cars):
(1) you need to get the spigot for the distributor - this can be removed from the old exhaust cam and hammered into the replacement - just be careful it is correctly orientated, for obvious spark timing reasons!
(2) you need to decide on whether you want to go down the line of a manual tensioner or an automatic. The belts are different and obviously so too are the tensioners themselves. Arguably, the manual tensioner is the better option for high-speed engine running (which is presumably why the VVC variant never received the automatic tensioner). If you want to keep the manual tensioner, then you will need to drill and tap the replacement head to match the original in order to keep the manual tensioner. This is what I had done on my TF135 head.
The other way to do this is to use an older head, but put in the TF135 cams into that. You'll still need the distributor spigot drive, but it'll save the drilling/tapping of the head.
In your case, I think that there is a real risk that the head will have over heated and gone soft. You're better off using a known good head which is still hard. Heat damaged heads will have deep and wide rings around the combustion chamber, where the liners will have hammered into the softened alloy head. If either head has this damage, then either look for a new head or look into getting the head refurbished - I've seen where a ring a metal is let into the alloy to recover a softened head - and this is potentially something that can be done locally. I am not so sure of the durability of head shims for this purpose - particularly if track days are planned...
The senario that lead to the swap was remarkably similar to yours Michael - the main coolant pipe from the cylinder head had developed a split and dumped the coolant, leading to the cylinder head over heating and going soft.
The TF135 head casting is largely identical to the earlier versions and the cams run fine with MEMS1.9.
It is not quite a plug and play swap though, as Rob says. The two main issues, assuming you keep the MEMS1.9 system (the engine runs just fine with these cams by the way - and I've done this with two cars):
(1) you need to get the spigot for the distributor - this can be removed from the old exhaust cam and hammered into the replacement - just be careful it is correctly orientated, for obvious spark timing reasons!
(2) you need to decide on whether you want to go down the line of a manual tensioner or an automatic. The belts are different and obviously so too are the tensioners themselves. Arguably, the manual tensioner is the better option for high-speed engine running (which is presumably why the VVC variant never received the automatic tensioner). If you want to keep the manual tensioner, then you will need to drill and tap the replacement head to match the original in order to keep the manual tensioner. This is what I had done on my TF135 head.
The other way to do this is to use an older head, but put in the TF135 cams into that. You'll still need the distributor spigot drive, but it'll save the drilling/tapping of the head.
In your case, I think that there is a real risk that the head will have over heated and gone soft. You're better off using a known good head which is still hard. Heat damaged heads will have deep and wide rings around the combustion chamber, where the liners will have hammered into the softened alloy head. If either head has this damage, then either look for a new head or look into getting the head refurbished - I've seen where a ring a metal is let into the alloy to recover a softened head - and this is potentially something that can be done locally. I am not so sure of the durability of head shims for this purpose - particularly if track days are planned...
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RobboMC
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Re: Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
Hi Rob,
So when I fitted my replacement engine I retro fitted the 120PS cams to the 135 engine as I thought the cams and ECU needed to match
to run the reluctor ring sensor and plug top coils.
You are saying it's possible to run the 135 cams with the old MEMS1.9 ECU and a distributor??
In my case can I then just do a cam swap as I still have the 135 cams in a box?
Of course I would have to fit a distributor spigot to make it run.
I wonder, does the 135 cam have the hole in the end to press the spigot into?
I will go home and look. and IIRC the spigot is in the inlet cam, but I accept it's been 15 years since you did the swap.
So when I fitted my replacement engine I retro fitted the 120PS cams to the 135 engine as I thought the cams and ECU needed to match
to run the reluctor ring sensor and plug top coils.
You are saying it's possible to run the 135 cams with the old MEMS1.9 ECU and a distributor??
In my case can I then just do a cam swap as I still have the 135 cams in a box?
Of course I would have to fit a distributor spigot to make it run.
I wonder, does the 135 cam have the hole in the end to press the spigot into?
I will go home and look. and IIRC the spigot is in the inlet cam, but I accept it's been 15 years since you did the swap.
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RobboMC
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Re: Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
I managed to find the old document about engine alternatives where Rob documents the difference between the 120PS and 135PS cams.
http://mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engine ... ptions.htm
Seems I probably should have kept the 135 cams when I installed my engine way back in 2015.
So now I have 2 options -
firstly I have the M13 engine standard valve springs, whether they are the older ones getting a hard life
or the newer ones I don't know. The engine number is newer, its an M13 engine - yes out of a CVT car originally.
Option 1- fit the cams I have in storage - cost 38 quid for a new drive bush
Option 2 - https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RP1559 plus the 38 quid for a new drive bush
Option 3 - get a set of 135 cams from a wrecker ( or an entire head to get the springs as well )
the question is more power worth 620 quid??
Obviously other changes are in the wind to improve air inflow and exhaust outflow.
Since I would be doing a timing belt change anyway when this happens it's not TOO much extra work to change the cams;
and a job I have done before.
On further looking I see from the engine list my M13 is possibly a 120PS anyway.
I guess I should get the verniers out and measure the lift!
And work out which valve springs I have. I was hoping to do this without removing the head ( to change valve springs )
http://mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engine ... ptions.htm
Seems I probably should have kept the 135 cams when I installed my engine way back in 2015.
So now I have 2 options -
firstly I have the M13 engine standard valve springs, whether they are the older ones getting a hard life
or the newer ones I don't know. The engine number is newer, its an M13 engine - yes out of a CVT car originally.
Option 1- fit the cams I have in storage - cost 38 quid for a new drive bush
Option 2 - https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RP1559 plus the 38 quid for a new drive bush
Option 3 - get a set of 135 cams from a wrecker ( or an entire head to get the springs as well )
the question is more power worth 620 quid??
Obviously other changes are in the wind to improve air inflow and exhaust outflow.
Since I would be doing a timing belt change anyway when this happens it's not TOO much extra work to change the cams;
and a job I have done before.
On further looking I see from the engine list my M13 is possibly a 120PS anyway.
I guess I should get the verniers out and measure the lift!
And work out which valve springs I have. I was hoping to do this without removing the head ( to change valve springs )
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Rob Bell
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- Model of Car: MGF 1.8i + MGF Shed!
Re: Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
Absolutely, yes!
Yes, you can
Yes, it does.
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Rob Bell
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- Model of Car: MGF 1.8i + MGF Shed!
Re: Fitting a TF135 head to a 1.8i
No - you could probably buy a VVC engine for that kind of money and get more power and torque...
S
You're absolutely right - not too much work, although of course you'll need the correct anaerobic sealant, but you've been down that path before, so you know what to do
One one car, I used the TF135 head, so has the valve springs specified for that engine. But whether you need to change the valve springs is a moot point. The engine engineer I spoke to (who was involved with the engine's original development) was quite adamant that you really do need to change the valve springs to avoid things going coil bound. However, aftermarket cam suppliers will happily supply you with cams that are said to work with standard MPi valve springs with more lift/duration than the standard TF 135 cam. Therefore, on Project Shed, I have used the Lotus Sport 135 cams (the same as TF135 cams) on the standard MPi head and standard valve springs, and this simply has not proven to be a problem...
Apologies that these replies are two months late - been rather busy of late, but hopefully the responses are still of use Rob!