Gearbox life expectancy opinions needed

[Granty]

The main purpose of this thread is to gather opinions on how long both average people and experienced people would expect a Brand new gearbox to last as on the advice of trading standards I intend to make a claim against the garage that fitted our box as it only managed 6317 miles before giving up on us and cost around £2500 including fitting meaning as it stands we are potentially £5000 down.
It may vary as I'm talking about the MGF steptronic gearbox which believe me seems to be strictly controlled by computer whether in drive or sports mode meaning it is near impossible to abuse,
I would appreciate if you can just say whether or not you would expect a brand new gearbox fitted to your MG to achieve more than 6500 miles or if you have the knowledge I would appreciate if you could put an expected mileage of this type of box, would the manufacturer have a spec on that?

You can read on from here but if you prefer shorter messages then there really is no need as I have just copied my original couple of posts, I'll start off with my opinion in a new reply below and thank you for taking the time to assist with my issue as the more opinions I get the stronger my case becomes, that is so long as not too many people would be happy paying £2500 for 6317 miles from a gearbox .


I originally posted the quoted message below and it is now confirmed that the gearbox is at fault, I have spoken to many people as to how a supposedly brand new gearbox should be failing after 18 months and only 6317 miles of use and even been told that most people would expect 3 to 4 times that from even a reconditioned box never mind new.

I have spoken to trading standards and they pointed me in the direction of the supply of goods and services act 1982 which states that goods must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and last a reasonable amount of time, to cut it down basically the main part of the legislation regarding my issue is the part about it lasting a reasonable amount of time and it also states that goods should last as long as what any reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, I guess a majority would also count and so I would like to gather opinions of regular people and of course any mechanics or people who know these boxes well are more than welcome to give their opinion.

[Granty]

In my opinion I would expect a brand new gearbox to last more than 6500 miles.
I'm no mechanic but personally I would expect a minimum of 30000 from a new gearbox and 20000 from a refurb to be considered a reasonable amount.

[Geoff.F]

An expected life for a new OEM gearbox may be the original car warranty applied by MGR. My Steptronic is a Swiss return import but I believe UK was 3 years at 12K per year.
The box fitted to the MG is common to other Manufacturers and has a very good reliability record except for the occasional oil pump drive bearing.
I have spent many years investigating aircraft engine failures. Probabilities must always be considered. Without detailed analysis of the condition of the failed boxes, it is difficult to reach conclusions however statistics would suggest that 2 failures in one car is extremely unlikely unless there is a common cause ie. a fault in the car which caused the 1st failure was not identified and thereby caused the 2nd failure.
To fight your case would require a detailed engineering analysis which would cost more than the car is worth.
Last time I looked on E-Bay, a Box was £350 or offers. It may not be a happy answer but it is the one that I would go for.
Geoff F.

[David Clelland]

The gearbox is one of the main components in a car and as far as I know cars are designed to last around 10 years. The fact that the government scrappage scheme was for cars of this vintage indicates that they also expect the useful working life of a car to last this time. Unlike the others above I would expect a gearbox (manual or automatic) driven under normal circumstances to last a lot longer than 30,000 miles. My own MGF Steptronic is now well past 50,000 miles without any problems (not pampered and taken on track on numerous occasions) and I hope that it will continue for many miles to come. If your car was driven as a normal everyday car then the mileage that you say the new box has done would mean that it would only have lasted 6 or 7 months. I don't think that anybody could argue that this is unacceptable and that either the gearbox or workmanship in fitting it are suspect.

[Bandit]

When new, the MGF Steptronic was sold with a 3 year warranty, and I'm pretty sure the mileage limit was 60,000. That suggests that MGR expected the gearboxes to last at least the warranty period & mileage; the supplier of the gearboxes would have had to meet their quality & durability criteria otherwise the contract would have contained severe penalties - recalls are devastatingly expensive and a car manufacturers's worst fear. Therefore it would reasonable to expect any gearbox coming from that same supplier (ZF) would be to the same quality, regardless of route through the supply chain.

Do you have any information on what has actually gone wrong with your current gearbox? If the garage that fitted it are telling you it can't be repaired, ask them why? It's a combination of electronic controllers and mechanical Van Doorne conical shafts, like virtually every other CVT gearbox used by other manufacturers. If one component has broken mechanically it is very unlikely that it physically cannot be replaced, otherwise how could ZF have assembled the gearbox in the factory..? If it is an electronic problem, which I suspect it is, then again I very much doubt that it physically cannot be replaced. The reluctance of mechanics to delve into the innards comes I'm pretty sure from a simple lack of knowledge, since there appears to be no shortage of gearbox re-conditioners who are able to strip & rebuild ZF gearboxes. That reluctance has bred a mentality of 'not worth repairing, just get a new one', which is all very well while a warranty backs the outlay but I suspect that MGR dealerships have just continued that practice hoping that customers will just hand over their credit cards and cross their fingers that the 'new' gearbox will not disappoint them. And if that's what dealerships do, the independant garages tend to follow. I would strongly suggest asking persistent questions about what diagnostic procedures have been carried out on your current gearbox, and whether ZF can confirm that it is irrepairable. While removing the gearbox and putting it on a pallet to send to Germany for ZF to have a look at seems heavy-handed, the costs of that pale into insignificance compared to another £2500 bill ZF would I suspect be able to confirm when it was manufactured and whether it was indeed 'new' - it's all too easy for items like a gearbox to be dressed up as new when the internals are in fact not.

Your comment about 'abuse' suggests that the garage are implying you might have maltreated it? That's a bit of a non-starter for them, since the gearbox has protective measures built into it in order to prevent it or the engine from going outside normal operating parameters. I didn't have one for long, but it was long enough for me to discover a frequent difference of opinion on downshifts - Computer Says "No"... If something has mechanically broken, can they prove it was something in the driver's direct control, i.e. no electronics in between?

In general, I would regard a gearbox that could not deliver 50,000 miles to be unfit for purpose. If it failed before 100,000 miles I'd feel it wasn't as durable as it should be. Failing at less than 10,000 miles would incline me towards towing the car to the supplying garage and parking it across their entrance.

[Granty]

In general, I would regard a gearbox that could not deliver 50,000 miles to be unfit for purpose. If it failed before 100,000 miles I'd feel it wasn't as durable as it should be. Failing at less than 10,000 miles would incline me towards towing the car to the supplying garage and parking it across their entrance.

Good Advice, I may just do that if they don't acknowledge this failure cannot possibly be our fault and has to be either the gearbox or the fitting, that would be a big mistake on their part as the costs we would incur by proving they are at fault will be their responsibility when I prove otherwise, I already have another mechanic waiting the two week period for their reply, this guy knows these boxes and will tell us what went wrong and hopefully if indeed it was new, I just don't want him to touch it before I hear back from the garage in question as if it hasn't been touched then the blame isn't transferrable.

Thanks for all of your reply's, please keep your estimates coming as they are very helpful and much appreciated.

[Granty]

An expected life for a new OEM gearbox may be the original car warranty applied by MGR. My Steptronic is a Swiss return import but I believe UK was 3 years at 12K per year.
The box fitted to the MG is common to other Manufacturers and has a very good reliability record except for the occasional oil pump drive bearing.
I have spent many years investigating aircraft engine failures. Probabilities must always be considered. Without detailed analysis of the condition of the failed boxes, it is difficult to reach conclusions however statistics would suggest that 2 failures in one car is extremely unlikely unless there is a common cause ie. a fault in the car which caused the 1st failure was not identified and thereby caused the 2nd failure.
To fight your case would require a detailed engineering analysis which would cost more than the car is worth.
Last time I looked on E-Bay, a Box was £350 or offers. It may not be a happy answer but it is the one that I would go for.
Geoff F.

Thanks for your reply but I do not accept that the garage are not to blame here what ever the reason be for this box failing prematurely
If the car was at fault which I doubt, then surely it's still the garage in questions responsibility for failing to diagnose that problem in the first place when we paid them to diagnose the problem and fix the car, they had the car when it originally broke down and 'if' they did miss an underlying problem then as we entrusted them to solve it in the first place they have still let us down, in that case they would have fitted a gearbox which was always going to fail and us not being mechanics can't possibly be at fault for that, they ran their checks to determine the problem, they told us it was simply that the gearbox had given up and that it needed replacing, who am I to argue.

[Granty]

This is my post from another forum, saves me rewriting it.
Thanks guys/girls keep your estimates coming they are much appreciated and very helpful, these along with a mechanic or two's estimations should go a long way should they deny that the box has failed prematurely.

Did the same garage supply and fit the gearbox? IF not you may have to find out if the fault is as said earlier one of install or actual problem with the new box.
Also was the box new or recon?

Yes they got the box from a supplier of theirs unknown to us, they told us it was brand new as me and my girlfriend considered a refurb but after some problems with a con online where we nearly lost our money and due to the difficulty of sourcing a box being the steptronic model we bit the bullet and went for new, we was relieved to get the car back and we was sure this box being new wouldn't fail.

I was being extremely conservative when I said that I would expect a minimum 30'000 miles, fact is even at that I would still be dissapointed though maybe more inclined to blame bad luck rather than faulty goods or poor fitting, I said to my girlfriend I bet these boxes usually do a minimum of 80'000 - 120'000 and should be rated above most normal gearbox's as they are strictly goverened by the computer, if you try to shift into 3rd at 15mph it won't let you and the same when shifting down too early, we only ever used the new box in drive so the computer did all of the work.

My girlfriend was upset when it failed again believing it would cost us another £2500 to fix (money we don't really have) but with your opinions and estimates things have been put into perspective and as I thought this box has quite simply failed long before what any reasonable person would deem satisfactory putting the garage firmly at fault.

They are at fault from our point of view but as I pointed out to them in my letter, if indeed this box is new as they told us then surely they have the same come back on their supplier if the box rather than fitting is at fault. Some people have suggested we question that the box is actually new and I put this to the garage as nicely as I could but they did not like me asking that, i'm sure anybody would question that but the lady could not grasp why I was asking unless possibly I hit a nerve, I told her that people on various MG forums had told me that the box should be lasting far longer and pointed out other advice to her as to what the fault may be, she basically said that their systems are far better than any forums at determining a fault and that they pay a lot of money for them! to which I said the collective pool of knowlege of people many of whom are enthusiasts in my particular car is as good as any system they have, infact it may well be their undoing if they don't play fair since they have let us take the car without so much as an explanation as to what the fault may be, all they have said is it certainly looks as though the gearbox is at fault again! but with your oppinions matching my own then if they disagree I will challenge them all the way and if we have to have this box looked at they will end up paying for any costs we incur also.

[Rob Bell]

I have managed to 'break' an MGF gearbox through motorsport useage (it wore out the synchro rings) - but that took more than 60k miles of road/circuit use. I would suggest that this was far in excess of normal useage.
PG1 boxes always crop up on ebay, because they're almost invariably still in perfect working order when the car is broken for parts. I would expect a gearbox to last in excess of 150,000 miles - and more like 200,000 miles.

The steptronic CVT is another kettle of fish to a conventional manual, but it isn't an uncommon one, being fitted to cars from other manufacturers - including BMW for the MINI. The gearbox is sourced from a highly respected gearbox manufacturer. If new, it should be covered by a manufacturer's guarantee, and the work carried out by a limited warranty.

Failure at just 6000 miles suggests either a manufacturing fault, or a problem with the installation. This is not a wear and tear problem. I think it would be exceptionally difficult for you, as an owner, to be so absusive to a gearbox as to cause failure after such a period of time.

It might be worth your while trawling the Mini forums to see what their experiences are - but I doubt many will have failed so precipitously!

Good luck with your claim

[bgunn]

My idea on this is that the wrong fluid was used.

Esso EZL799 CVT fluid MUST be used in this gearbox, and absolutely NOTHING else, otherwise failure will occur in a short order. This is a well documented 'issue' (the tolerance of the gearbox to other fluids), and will be found if you read the MINI forums about it. As said, the basic gearbox is the same, the difference is obviously the bellhousing, as well as other small detail changes..

[Geoff.F]

My idea on this is that the wrong fluid was used..

This may be the 'common cause'.
Did the garage carry out an oil change on the 1st box before failure.???
Geoff F.

[Kasper]

I do agree with Rob's view regarding the manual gearbox.
For the CTV system I would like to add up that the number of specialists on this kind of gearbox is really low. Perhaps by high durability in general there is a low demand, resulting in a low number of focussed companies.

In The Netherlands (The country that gave birth to the CTV) there is only one highly recommended specialist. (being ex factory linked)
I know it is not nearby for UK people. But in case you do need a specialist it might be an option.

[Granty]

My idea on this is that the wrong fluid was used.

Esso EZL799 CVT fluid MUST be used in this gearbox, and absolutely NOTHING else, otherwise failure will occur in a short order. This is a well documented 'issue' (the tolerance of the gearbox to other fluids), and will be found if you read the MINI forums about it. As said, the basic gearbox is the same, the difference is obviously the bellhousing, as well as other small detail changes..

When they fitted the new box they ordered some oil in as they said they was waiting on it, on the receipt I think it said "semi auto oil" and cost £5 extra, even if the wrong stuff was used how could that be determined? , I'd guess it wouldn't be that easy to compare oil with oil, though if people have realised this mistake before then I guess the comparison can be made right?

Will post back when I get the garage's reply to my letter just to keep anyone interested in the picture or if indeed there are any complications, I really don't see how they can back out of this one though and their bill will just rise if they try to as it's not hard to prove that this box should last longer and with a vast majority backing my opinions and many estimating 100'000 miles or more then i'm sure that we deserve a full fix/refund.

[Granty]

Message from another thread regarding this issue

Steve1951;3891257]Another take on this is that the gearbox being a major item, I would think would not normally have just a 12 months gaurentee, I would have thought it would have a lot longer, it would be worth checking.

One problem you may have is that if the gearbox is faulty, the garage would naturally charge you for its removal and putting the new one in. As it is not their fault, and then you would have to see if you could reclaim the money from the supplier of the gearbox, or the manufacturer.

At the end of the day, there is no way on this earth a gearbox can fail after such a short time and such low mileage, and it be deemed acceptable.

As we are the garage's customer and they are the suppliers then the garage is answerable to us and the supplier to the garage, as I stated in my letter if we have a claim on them then surely they do too on the supplier so long as the box is new as they claim.

I would like the suppliers details as it has been suggested and I have seen with my own eyes that these type of parts usually come with more than an unconvincing 12 month warranty, often 24 months or sometimes 18 seem to be more common, if thats the case though why would the garage only pass on a 12 month warranty to us?

How many suppliers of these boxes are there? is it zx in Germany? is there other suppliers of brand new boxes, maybe I could find out what the standard warranty is as this would really help though i'm unsure whether the garage are obliged to share who their supplier is with us, but if they've nothing to hide then what would be the harm right?

[Jonathan Tully]

Might be worth contacting their service desk: http://www.zf.com/eu/content/en/great_b ... rt_uk.html if you don't get any joy with the garage.

Also this is a good read if you haven't been pointed in this direction as yet: http://www.mini2.com/cvt/zf_vt1f_gearbo ... iption.pdf

[Geoff.F]

At this stage I believe that you should recover the car home and take an oil sample. Either Esso or a Laboratory ( TS will tell you where) can quickly tell you what is in there.
There is no reason why your existing garage should fit the replacement. A court will accept fair costs from another garage however an X-Part Approved garage would be preferable.
The failed gearbox is your property so keep it in case you want it examined by an expert. You may find the AA/RAC will help.
Geoff F.

[David Clelland]

Just lifted this quote from .org Forum. I thought that I remembered that someone had taken over ZF.

"The CVT maker, Punch Powertrain (formerly ZF, formerly Van Dooren (I think)) states that the Esso special oil EZL799 is the only oil to be used and use of other oils can (will) cause early failure. The BMW MINI own brand oil is said to be rebranded Esso."

[Granty]

Thanks for all of the info so far, Geoff.F/anybody do you know how I could get the oil checked, I don't even know how I would extract it but i know a garage who would do that for me, I haven't a clue where i'd take/send it though
It's become obvious that if the wrong stuff is in there then that is highly likely the reason it's failed, so I agree it needs testing and I'll do that just as soon as I find someone who can test it, I mean I don't know of any labs and would they test it for me if I asked?

[Geoff.F]

Until 8 years ago,I would have taken it to work as oil analysis is part of the aircraft engine industry.
Removal is easy. Either use a syringe and tube down the filler tube or remove the drain plug on the bottom.
You may ask your local Trading Standards where to go or Google 'Oil Analysis'.
http://www.oil-analysis.org in Doncaster look promising. You may take your sample together with the correct Esso and maybe a couple of other auto- gearbox oil samples so that they may find a match but a definite yes or no.
Geoff F.

[Granty]

Thanks Geoff I'll look into getting the ball rolling with this once we have received the garage's response

The response from this and other forums have all been in harmony with each other, The estimates so far show that most reasonable people would expect this box to hit at least 100'000 miles with some believing it should last the life of the car, if the average had come out at 30'000 my box would have still failed almost 5 times before that amount so I really can't see what the garage could come up with to deny this should be fixed under the contract we have.