Superchips ICON

[Plezier]

Ok just saw apost on the other forums about this Superchip ICOn box. It looks like it may be a piggy back chipping box but that's about all I can find about it except them claim an 8bhp increase on the MGF MPi and VVC.

Anyone able to shed more light on this subject?

[colintf]

If your going to remap, talk to Z&F Tuning

[Plezier]

If your going to remap, talk to Z&F Tuning

They don't do the mems 1.9 not the mems 2 which my F's are fitted with. Already asked that question.

Have just been doing some reading about the Super Chips and it seems that some who didn't have it mapped proeprly on a rolling road have done serious damage to their engines. Have also found that there is a super chips installer about 15 miles up the road so this would indicate that they also have a rolling road. Think I need to go over and see if this is indeed the case and if so check out theri prices for using it.

[Ianburrows]

Cost probably value of your car i bet?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[quick_spider]

The ICON RACE has a 2d map to give an offest to the igntion timing according to the revs. My experience of them in my old Metro was good - more ignition advance meant more torque - this was before the days of MEMS3 and remaps.

I still have at least one in the shed gathering dust along with the programming lead and standard maps from Superchips.

[Rob Bell]

There is of course only so much one can achieve with an ignition remap, and 8bhp gains are not realistic, but if you have other modifications, and the fuelling isn't running lean, you might get a up to 5% gains if you're lucky.

Currently the most cost effective upgrade - I think - is a MEMS 3 conversion and remap. But as you'll appreciate, that'd a bit of work, but Mark will remap BOTH ignition AND fuel maps

[Plezier]

This is why I posed the question I simply don't understand all this chipping and remapping business.

[Rob Bell]

Sensible to ask!

To recap, the ICON Race is a piggy back ECU, that interrupts the standard MEMS1.9 or MEMS2J output signal to advance or retard the ignition according to engine load/ sensor inputs. Many have been very happy with this approach, and I have seen credible data suggesting up to 5bhp gains on even relatively unmodified engines. There have been a few disasters reported though, so it makes the most sense to get the ICON configured on a rolling road. The unit that Jon has comes complete with the programming leads so that this can be done.

A piggy back ECU is the only option of programming with MEMS1.9 or 2J, but the later MEMS3 is re-mappable for fuel and ignition: Z&F Tuning have this corner of the market pretty much sewn up these days. Mark doesn't make very optimistic claims, but useful power and torque gains have been found, and the positive feedback speaks for itself.

For MEMS1.9/2J owners, the most flexible solution is to fit an aftermarket, replacement ECU. Emerald offer a plug-and-play plug-compatible ECU which has meant that it is the market leader for K-series powered cars - but there are other options available including the ubiquitous MegaSquirt and Canems systems (the latter is perhaps the most direct competitor to the Emerald). And then there are much more expensive, professional options (DTU etc)

Loads of choice: what option one goes for depends on the ambitions for the engine tuning

[Plezier]

Before you mentioned it had never heard of Supersquirt .................................. would this work on the MPi?

MEGASQUIRT ECU MS2

[Rob Bell]

Megasquirt has been around for quite a while now - with a number of different iterations and also available as self-build or ready assembled. The number of permutations has gotten really rather confusing!

Without having checked the specification of the MS2, the answer is likely to be yes, this ECU ought to be able to run your MPi engine; these things are designed to run almost any internal combustion engine - including the one in your old lawnmower - so long as it has appropriate sensors.

Before you take the plunge, I'd advise considering what the tuning objectives are. The stand-alone ECU is great when you need to have full control over the fuel and ignition maps to cover what ever tuning demands you have on your engine. To get the most out of it though, you'll need to factor in rolling road mapping time. To my surprise, I discovered that Bernard Scouse wasn't interested in mapping the Megasquirt: he has had too many problems with them (perhaps due to DIY build issues?) - so talk to your local rolling road operator before buying - otherwise you may struggle to get someone to perfect the maps.

Personally I'd actually go for an Emerald if you need a stand alone ECU - depending on what you want, an old M3D unit would be ideal - and is plug-and-play with the existing harness connectors without the need to think about lifting a soldering iron!

If tuning ambitions are more measured, then a MEMS3 conversion could be the way to go: MEMS3 ECUs can be had for as little as a tenner - but you'll need the engine loom, sensors and a way of connecting it to your existing main body wiring loom - but none of this is insurmountable: its been done many times before.

As it turns out, I have to use MEMS3 to stay within Sprint Championship class regulations: I am permitted to remap a standard ECU Mark and I reckon it should be able to manage my engine even when fitted with these GSXR throttle bodies - so watch this space!

[quick_spider]

There is of course only so much one can achieve with an ignition remap, and 8bhp gains are not realistic, but if you have other modifications, and the fuelling isn't running lean, you might get a up to 5% gains if you're lucky.

Currently the most cost effective upgrade - I think - is a MEMS 3 conversion and remap. But as you'll appreciate, that'd a bit of work, but Mark will remap BOTH ignition AND fuel maps

I think the 8bhp figure is on a 143 vvc... Which works out at around 5%

My feeling is most of the Z&F gains are ignition timing related - there's not a great deal wrong with the fuelling between Mems 1.9/2j/3 under wide open throttle (Afrs are around 12.5:1 so plenty enough fuelling that it won't run too lean if you have mods to get more air in)

[Plezier]

AHhhh according the Superchips web site they claim 8bhp for both MPi and VVC.

Rob the finances simply are not there for an Emerald. In fact I am probably looking at used whatever except possibly the Icon as they need setting up on the rollign road and althtough there is an istaller fairly local I wonder how they would feel about setting up a used one and how much they would charge. Others well as I don't possess a lap top that may be a problem too.

For now it's Induction and keep looking for a used proepr performance 4/2/1 manifold think I am goign to need some luck on this one.

[Rob Bell]

There is of course only so much one can achieve with an ignition remap, and 8bhp gains are not realistic, but if you have other modifications, and the fuelling isn't running lean, you might get a up to 5% gains if you're lucky.

Currently the most cost effective upgrade - I think - is a MEMS 3 conversion and remap. But as you'll appreciate, that'd a bit of work, but Mark will remap BOTH ignition AND fuel maps

I think the 8bhp figure is on a 143 vvc... Which works out at around 5%

My feeling is most of the Z&F gains are ignition timing related - there's not a great deal wrong with the fuelling between Mems 1.9/2j/3 under wide open throttle (Afrs are around 12.5:1 so plenty enough fuelling that it won't run too lean if you have mods to get more air in)

That's true - although, depending on what you've done in terms of bolt-on goodies, the AFR can run a little on the lean side - but for a gain of 1 or 2bhp in certain parts of the rev range isn't going to make much difference to the headline figure. Being able to RR set up the fuel and ignition maps on a more modified engine is where the true advantages come - but to be honest, these aren't the circumstances were you'd be considering an ICON in the first place.

Kevin - keep to the well trodden path of bolt ons for now: filter with cold air supply, decent exhaust back box and a good 4-2-1 manifold. Then if you get the car on a rolling road and are prepared to run high-octane fuel, you could probably look to go down the ICON route to really optimise your set up

[Rob Bell]

And think about TF135 cams on your MPi - MEMS1.9 will run these cams without running too lean

[Plezier]

Rob,

I drove over the the installers today as was less then impressed as they have no way of setting them up just loading the std Superchip supplied generic map ................................... so that's one idea kicked into touch.

Have bought an enclosed cold sir feed induction kit. The ITG one pointed outt o me on e-bay went for too much but I did win an Apiro enclosed kit which will be fitted. Thought I had got a Pipercross Viper kit but the seller has refused to complete and gotten e-bay to cancel the sale Seems they forget that they didn't actually have one to sell???????????????? more like it didn't sell for enough !

Am still looking for a suitable exhaust manifold. Might just have to fettle and re-work a std one for now until we can gt a decent one ..................................... but they are so expensive .

Edit:- Doing a broad web search the cheapest that came up with is the one from the MGF Centre in Wolverhampton which is stainless but of course thier site does not include VAT and then it's only about £20 cheaper than the other well known places.

[quick_spider]

That's true - although, depending on what you've done in terms of bolt-on goodies, the AFR can run a little on the lean side - but for a gain of 1 or 2bhp in certain parts of the rev range isn't going to make much difference to the headline figure. Being able to RR set up the fuel and ignition maps on a more modified engine is where the true advantages come - but to be honest, these aren't the circumstances were you'd be considering an ICON in the first place.

Kevin - keep to the well trodden path of bolt ons for now: filter with cold air supply, decent exhaust back box and a good 4-2-1 manifold. Then if you get the car on a rolling road and are prepared to run high-octane fuel, you could probably look to go down the ICON route to really optimise your set up

I've run wideband sensors in my TF and metro and have yet to see a mod on the standard plenum which resulted in what I would consider lean enough to cause any engine damage. The metro ran a ported polished vvc head with +1mm inlet valves, reground exhaust cam all timed up on offset dowels with a Janspeed 4-2-1 manifold and BMC CDA filter. This setup is probably the most extreme example of an engine running on a standard plenum so I think you'd be hard pushed to damage an engine with less extreme mods. Granted, you won't be squeezing the most torque out of the engine, but it's a happy compromise.

If you want to try an icon, I'm pretty sure I've got one (probably more!) in the shed with plug/play Mems 1.9/2j harnesses if you're passing Tebworth...

Re filters. Have a look at the car builder solutions filters - they were well priced compared to pipercross/itg/BMC a couple of years back.

[Plezier]

Thank you for the kind offer will give it some serious thought.

Meanwhile........................... have secured an Apiro Enclosed filter Induction system which was pointed out to me by an helpful cahp over on .org. Tried to win an ITG but it went beyond my budget. Thought I had a Pipercross Viper but it seems I was mistaken.

The new Distributer cap, arm and leads should be here today, plugs arrived yesterday, the cap etc are Lucas items so hopefully will be fine and the replacement Compression tester is on route so the plan is to try the tester again when have the access cover off to replace the service bits. Also hope to be able to replace the Polymer throttle body with an alloy one. probably be a de-wedged 48mm one for at least the time being.

The aim is to have the engine all serviced ready with known compression readings before booking the Dyno/Rolling Road session to get a base line to work from and from which to plan the further improvements. Which will include a betetr exhaust manifold and probably cams. Once I collect that old 1.6 K series out of the 45 but which has a fairly good 1.8 head off an MGF on it will see what we can do in cleaning it up and about a possible cam change. 115/135 cams or of course another possiblity is two VVC exhaust cams............................ spent the evening reading all that i could find on K series improvements and this came up . Will have a look and see if I can convert the steel cam wheels to adjustable ones.

[Rob Bell]

That's true - although, depending on what you've done in terms of bolt-on goodies, the AFR can run a little on the lean side - but for a gain of 1 or 2bhp in certain parts of the rev range isn't going to make much difference to the headline figure. Being able to RR set up the fuel and ignition maps on a more modified engine is where the true advantages come - but to be honest, these aren't the circumstances were you'd be considering an ICON in the first place.

Kevin - keep to the well trodden path of bolt ons for now: filter with cold air supply, decent exhaust back box and a good 4-2-1 manifold. Then if you get the car on a rolling road and are prepared to run high-octane fuel, you could probably look to go down the ICON route to really optimise your set up

I've run wideband sensors in my TF and metro and have yet to see a mod on the standard plenum which resulted in what I would consider lean enough to cause any engine damage. The metro ran a ported polished vvc head with +1mm inlet valves, reground exhaust cam all timed up on offset dowels with a Janspeed 4-2-1 manifold and BMC CDA filter. This setup is probably the most extreme example of an engine running on a standard plenum so I think you'd be hard pushed to damage an engine with less extreme mods. Granted, you won't be squeezing the most torque out of the engine, but it's a happy compromise.

If you want to try an icon, I'm pretty sure I've got one (probably more!) in the shed with plug/play Mems 1.9/2j harnesses if you're passing Tebworth...

Re filters. Have a look at the car builder solutions filters - they were well priced compared to pipercross/itg/BMC a couple of years back.

Jon, I wasn't really thinking of damage (although I do remember Bruno causing serious damage on his VVC with an ICON Race many years ago - although the details of how he damaged his engine never really fully emerged!), but rather I was thinking along the lines of optimising the power/torque curves I am sure you're right though: a happy compromise can be reached with the ICON - although not necessarily with a "one size fits all" map as you might get from certain tuning shops...

The aim is to have the engine all serviced ready with known compression readings before booking the Dyno/Rolling Road session to get a base line to work from and from which to plan the further improvements. Which will include a betetr exhaust manifold and probably cams. Once I collect that old 1.6 K series out of the 45 but which has a fairly good 1.8 head off an MGF on it will see what we can do in cleaning it up and about a possible cam change. 115/135 cams or of course another possiblity is two VVC exhaust cams............................ spent the evening reading all that i could find on K series improvements and this came up . Will have a look and see if I can convert the steel cam wheels to adjustable ones.

Sounds like a fun project Kevin!

[Plezier]

Rob,

Well my thougths are that just perhaps the spokes of the cam wheel can be cut off with enough left for tapped holes to allow the vernier type adjustment. The inners could be turned up in alloy a sort of hybrid stpe if you will. It would only cost a bit of time and electricky. As I think we probably have the alloy laying about. We also probably have several DTI's but I need to check on that. I KNOW that I have two lever types myself in my work box butt hey are perhaps not any use for setting up cams. Will see what Dad has got tucked away.

[Rob Bell]

I'm pretty sure that I have seen that done before - look forward to seeing this when it is done!

Will the resulting assembly need rotational balancing? I suspect that is a bit of a rhetorical question!